TEPCO/CHAdeMO Level III "quick" charging station/connector

[Norbert]

I disagree with this. Consider a 85kWh Model S, traveling at 65mph. It will travel at that speed for approx. 4 hours (260 miles) before needing a charge. A 1 hour CHAdeMO 50kW charge will yield another 2,5 hours or so. That is 7,5 hours total and 423 miles traveled.

After 4 hours of straight driving I am in need of food and rest. 1 hour is a perfect timeframe for enjoying a nice dinner at a restaurant. And 6,5 hours is just about as much driving I can take in one day. Even so, a 1:20 stop instead will yield 3,5 hours of additional driving instead of 2,5 hours.

Now, if the charger is located at a rest stop with nothing but a toilet I do agree. But then even 90kW is way too slow

That is more playing on that a 300 mile battery is almost as far as you would want to drive. And even then trying to imagine the most optimistic scenario possible. Kind of 100 miles close to saying: I don't need a fast charger at all. In some cases, it may be like you describe it.

Another scenario is that you make a round trip on a day, coming back home at night, without necessarily staying at places that have a charger. So you'll be making stops in any case, but not (necessarily) next to an available charger. Or even on a one way trip you'd like to (also) stop at a place without charger. In either case, you don't need additional resting.

I agree that a Model S could make much better use of 50 kW chargers than a Leaf, and it may be enough for you as a dedicated EV enthusiast. But when you make a longer trip as an average person, you want the charging to take away as little as possible from the few hours remaining in your day. You'll want to decide for yourself where to spend that hour, or 40 minutes. You won't be thinking "I'll have full dinner here, instead of where I am going, so that I can support EVs". You'll be frustrated that you have no choice. You'll be thinking "I wish I had an ICE, so I could finish my trip like everyone else".

And yes, for getting mainstream acceptance for "EVs are the future", to get car companies to support battery technology instead of hydrogen, even 90kW may be slow. But, at least, much closer to happiness, than 50 kW.

 

[stopcrazypp]

A 85kWh Model S with it's big battery and higher voltage (450V?) should be able to take the full 50kW for an hour or so at least. (50/85)*300=176 ideal miles from a hour of charging.

I haven't seen any indication the Model S will have higher voltage than the Roadster (375V). The Roadster is a 56kWh pack. Model S has three sizes: 40kWh, 60kWh, and 85kWh. It doesn't make any sense for them to have different pack voltages, so I suspect it'll only be slightly higher than the Roadster's, if at all.

Tesla claims 80% in 45 min (in 85kWh pack, so 90kW). Nissan claims 80% in 30 min (24kWh pack, so 38kW), so you may be right about Model S having better utilization, although it seems Tesla claims the Model S can fully utilize 90kW also.

But keep in mind the Model S will likely get less range per kWh. Higher than 50kW/125A is probably beyond the limits of a small battery pack like in the Leaf (and iMIEV), but for larger battery packs (like the 85kWh Model S's) it's under-utilizing the charging power available. SAE has previously announced 90kW/200A for J1772-DC and is considering up to 250kW, so I definitely think that is the better choice for long distance travel.

For long trips in a gas car, on average I stop about 30 min every 4 hours (about 260 miles as you say), so a charging speed of ~520mph would be on par.
50kW = 176mph ideal = 89 min stop for every 4hr/260mi
90kW =317mph ideal = 49 min stop for every 4hr/260mi

That's a pretty significant difference to me; 90kW is getting closer (not quite there) but 50kW is pretty far from on-par.

What would be really interesting is what connector the RAV4-EV uses. If it uses CHAdeMO (a possibility since Toyota is part of CHAdeMO) it'll be a big boon for CHAdeMO. If it uses Tesla's connector, it'll be a boon to Tesla (and CCS by extension). Most likely though it won't have DC charging (battery is too small given the li-cobalt chemistry).

 

[Norbert]

A Model S would get more kWh in 30 minutes from a CHAdeMO charger than a Leaf. You'll never get 50kW in a Leaf because of the low battery voltage (360V) and the 125A max of the chargers. 370V*125A is about the max you could hope for, or 46kW. But it will start to ramp down pretty fast, at somewhere between 50% and 60% SOC. At 80% you're down to 20kW or so.

A 85kWh Model S with it's big battery and higher voltage (450V?) should be able to take the full 50kW for an hour or so at least. (50/85)*300=176 ideal miles from a hour of charging. So at 55mph you get at least three hours of driving from every hour of charging. The 90kW charger will not cut this time to (50/90)*60=33 minutes as the battery probably can't sustain 90kW at higher SOC percentages. My guess is you can do the same 50kWh in 40minutes with the supercharger, cutting the 1 hour charge by 33%. Significant yes, but not that a big deal IMHO.

With a 60kWh Model S the difference will be even smaller.

Such adjustments are meaningful in specific use cases (close to full charge each time), but even then, only for current batteries. The Leaf's battery packs will improve to make better use of CHAdeMO's 50 kW, and the Model S's battery packs will improve to make better use of 90 kW (in so far as limited, which we don't really know yet).

 

[TEG]

New sign at VW ERL Blink CHAdeMO:

 

[TEG]

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - cash strapped councils turning off RFID Charging Stations

...now we've got General Motors in California doing their best to stop Nissan with deployment of ChadeMo chargers (they actually sent a representative a few days ago to the state legislature to argue that we should stop ChadeMo deployment in favor of their new "standard" with zero cars deployed)...

 

[TEG]

Nissan Quick Charger - CHAdeMO DC Fast Charging for Electric Vehicles

 

[Kipernicus]

I enjoyed watching this video of charging both a Leaf and iMiev at a 350Green fast charger (looks like in Chicago).
Agree with his assessment of the $7 fee - much more expensive than charging at home and even more expensive than filling up a prius (given the # of miles range you get for $7), but this is as it should be since fast charging should only be used when really necessary. The price point helps to keep it available for those who need it.


http://visforvoltage.org/forum/12281-using-350greens-fast-charger-stations-charjit

 

[doug]

^^ nice vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QlzHeU6sEH8

 

[TEG]

Interesting presentation here:
http://www.americas.fujielectric.com/sites/default/files/Fuji%20Electric%20-%20DC%20Quick%20Charging%20in%20North%20America%208-13-12.pdf

 

[dpeilow]

Dual mode CHAdeMO and 3 phase Mennekes.

ABB launches Terra SC Duo AC&DC fast charging station to support next wave of electric vehicles

 

[dhrivnak]

There are many CHadeMo quick chargers in operation at Cracker Barrel, a perfect place for a meal. So even if at a half charge when traveling it is a significant range extender.

 

[TEG]

Demand Charge Reduction:
http://www.theevproject.com/downloads/documents/2.%20DC%20Fast%20Charge-Demand%20Charge%20Reduction%20V1.0%20Revised%20%282%29.pdf

 

[widodh]

Dual mode CHAdeMO and 3 phase Mennekes.

ABB launches Terra SC Duo AC&DC fast charging station to support next wave of electric vehicles

Cool! That will work for the ZOE, but not with Model S as long as it doesn't have a Type 2 inlet.

When the provide a Tesla <> Type 2 cable you can only plug into Type 2 sockets, which will mean 3x32A at maximum.

 

[TEG]

So much for "electric highway" (US5) at least as far as California is concerned:

 

[100thMonkey]

Look at all those CHAdeMO stations in WA and OR! On one hand it's pathetic how far behind CA is, on the other hand it's a miracle there are already so many considering what a PITA is to find hosts and get them installed. The sooner Tesla comes out with a CHAdeMO adapter the better, we want to go on a looong road trip with our S!

 

[doug]

The talk of a CHAdeMO adapter for Europe got moved here: Likelihood of a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S - Page 52