TEPCO/CHAdeMO Level III "quick" charging station/connector

[benji4]

Good point! We need the acceleration to stay where it is -- so just supporting quick charging will be fine with the 1000 pound pack!

 

[dpeilow]

I'm really not convinced that any more than a few die-hard early adopters will find this model of small battery / fast charge useful for road tripping. We know that they can only fast charge 80% of the capacity, so if the Leaf has a 70 mile freeway/motorway range then this gives 56 miles between fast charges.

I don't want to be stopping every 45 minutes for 25 minutes. Such frequent stops are regular enough to be annoying and too short to do anything meaningful while waiting.

I think Tesla has it spot on with the Model S ability to drive for 3+ hours and then charge for an hour while I eat a meal. Having said that, it is clear from Benji4's map link that Model S absolutely has to support CHAdeMO in the Japanese market as its Level 3 DC connector.

 

[dsm363]

If SAE wants to get its system out there, they'd better be quick. If you are going to have J1772 for level 2 charging, then the J1772 level 3 DC spec is much better than having a completely separate socket. See here.

I've read through this thread but had a question. It looks like the TEPCO/CHAdeMO plug will be different than whatever the level 3 J1772 standard will be if I understand this correctly. Is this going to turn into a VHS/Betamax or HD-DVD/Bluray kind of fight in terms of standards? It wasn't clear to me from the presentation link but is their proposed level 3 J1772 plug going to be the same as the current J1772 lever 2 plug? For example, will you be able to pull up to a charging station in the future in your EV with a J1772 plug and charge either at level 2 or 3 from the same plug? Thanks.

It seems to me that having to have 2 separate plugs on a car (one for level 1 or 2 and another for fast charging) is less than ideal.

 

[TEG]

The 'current' J1772 plug/socket isn't adequate for DC Level 3 quick charge.
So, two different plugs seems like it may be what they have in mind.

And yes, TEPCO/CHAdeMO threatens to be one "standard" which could compete with others.

Some are hoping that CHAdeMO rolls out fast enough that the others give up before they get started, but time will tell.

 

[dsm363]

Thanks TEG. I guess I'd rather have it decided quickly as long as the CHAdeMO is a good solution. These meaningless standards fights delay adoption. It'll be interesting to hear what Tesla decides to do with quick charging on the Model S.

 

[qwk]

Too many standards is definately not good. I guess you could use adapters, but why?
There needs to be one established connection for all levels.

 

[TEG]

There needs to be one established connection for all levels.

I think that is oversimplified.
Quick/Fast charge tends to need heavier gauge wire, bigger pins, and better insulation.
(In other words, more expensive and bulky.)

Different parts of the world have different current types commonly available so it isn't as easy as "one size fits all".

But given all that, there are still regional "turf wars" over who gets to "own the standard" even when it could be shared with other areas. It is good that J1772 at least handles level 1 & level 2, and is common between Leaf, Volt, and other upcoming vehicles like plug in Prius and probably Model S.

CHAdeMO is a standard that could be used, but I think even Nissan and Mitsubishi view it as tentative since it was based on an emerging standard from the Japanese market and hasn't been accepted yet in other parts of the world. Tesla might have good reasons both political, & technical that would prevent them from fully embracing CHAdeMO just now.

 

[dpeilow]

I've read through this thread but had a question. It looks like the TEPCO/CHAdeMO plug will be different than whatever the level 3 J1772 standard will be if I understand this correctly. Is this going to turn into a VHS/Betamax or HD-DVD/Bluray kind of fight in terms of standards?

Yep.

It wasn't clear to me from the presentation link but is their proposed level 3 J1772 plug going to be the same as the current J1772 lever 2 plug? For example, will you be able to pull up to a charging station in the future in your EV with a J1772 plug and charge either at level 2 or 3 from the same plug? Thanks.

The 'current' J1772 plug/socket isn't adequate for DC Level 3 quick charge.
So, two different plugs seems like it may be what they have in mind.

The Level 3 J1772 is an extension of the Level 2 version. It has the two extra DC pins. The Level 2 plug will definitely connect to a Level 3 capable receptacle, but it remains to be seen if a Level 3 plug could connect to a Level 2 car and supply it with lower power AC.

If you look at page 15 of the presentation posted earlier, the AC section of the J1772 Level 3 plug seems to stand proud of the DC pins, which suggests they may intend it to connect to legacy Level 2 sockets. The Leaf appears to have enough room in its charging receptacle to accomodate this, but I'm not sure about the Volt - it may snag the bodywork.

Too many standards is definately not good. I guess you could use adapters, but why?
There needs to be one established connection for all levels.

Converting from CHAdeMO to the Level 3 J1772 proposal is going to be a bit more complicated than just a different plug on the cable. The former uses CAN bus signalling but the latter appears to be an extension of the Level 2 J1772 signalling system. The J1772 L3 proposal seems to offer a lot more power than CHAdeMO so is worth having for cars with big batteries.

I think that is oversimplified.
Quick/Fast charge tends to need heavier gauge wire, bigger pins, and better insulation.
(In other words, more expensive and bulky.)

While that is true, that doesn't mean that the plug needs to be sized for the max case every time. For example the way J1772 proposes the extra pins on the DC version deals with this - you can still plug Level 2 in. Also some of the plugs have contacts sized for 30A, some 75A, while still remaining interoperable. So it can be done.

Different parts of the world have different current types commonly available so it isn't as easy as "one size fits all".

But given all that, there are still regional "turf wars" over who gets to "own the standard" even when it could be shared with other areas. It is good that J1772 at least handles level 1 & level 2, and is common between Leaf, Volt, and other upcoming vehicles like plug in Prius and probably Model S.

CHAdeMO is a standard that could be used, but I think even Nissan and Mitsubishi view it as tentative since it was based on an emerging standard from the Japanese market and hasn't been accepted yet in other parts of the world. Tesla might have good reasons both political, & technical that would prevent them from fully embracing CHAdeMO just now.

I think a sensible approach (as things stand) might be for Model S to have the J1772 Level 2/3 combined socket on one side and the CHAdeMO socket on the other side for North American and Asian markets, and the Mennekes and CHAdeMO sockets for European markets. I'm expecting Nissan to roll out CHAdeMO in various locations here too as the Leaf gets established.

 

[dsm363]

I think a sensible approach (as things stand) might be for Model S to have the J1772 Level 2/3 combined socket on one side and the CHAdeMO socket on the other side for North American and Japanese markets, and the Mennekes and CHAdeMO sockets for European markets. I'm expecting Nissan to roll out CHAdeMO in various locations here too as the Leaf gets established.

That would make a ton of sense to support both standards. I'm sure Tesla has to lock in final design way before this battle is decided to that's one way to semi-future proof the car.

 

[dpeilow]

FAST CHARGES COMING TO TEPCO ELECTRIC FISHING BOAT IN JAPAN

 

[TEG]

The Level 3 J1772 is an extension of the Level 2 version. It has the two extra DC pins...

Yes, but has anyone seen a Level 3 J1772 in operation somewhere yet on a real vehicle in a real world situation?

It seems even with the lower power AC J1772 ("Level 2+") most plugs & sockets made so far aren't even rated for full current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

...The Yazaki plug that was built to the SAE J1772 plug standard successfully completed certification at UL. It is only certified to 30A although the standard is written to 80A...

...Work continues on specifications for higher-voltage, DC Fast Charge charging,[4] which has been referred to as level 3 charging. As of February 2010, the SAE J1772 committee is designing a DC connector based on the SAE J1772 AC connector with additional DC and ground pins, to then evaluate against other designs including the JARI/TEPCO connector used by the CHAdeMO DC fast charge protocol.[6] There are indications SAE is also investigating a third level of AC charging...

I think some of it boils down to CHAdeMO is available now, but high speed (Level 3) J1772 isn't quite ready yet.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

It seems even with the lower power AC J1772 ("Level 2+") most plugs & sockets made so far aren't even rated for full current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

ITT's J1772 connectors are rated to 75 Amp;

http://www.ittcannon.com/uploadedFiles/Product_PDFs/RZ_J1772_low_res.pdf

I have some on route to me for test in our labs...

 

[TEG]

http://www.teva2.com/J1772

...The DC Fast Charge stations are 208/380/400/480/575 VAC 3-Phase input and can output between 200 VDC - 450 VDC, 200 amps max. The connector is a Yazaki-CHAdeMO, 120A rated. Here are the Blink Specs. Here is an intoduction to the CHAdeMO standard...

http://www.blinknetwork.com/media/kit/Blink DC Fast Charger.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO

 

[mkromer]

Does anyone know if the Tepco connector (just the connector itself) is available for purchase, either directly through Tepco, or through a supplier? I have not been able to find any information on it in my brief web research. (I'm managing a project that includes demonstrating a custom Level 3 DC charging link.)

Thanks!
Matt

 

[Eberhard]

..The DC Fast Charge stations are 208/380/400/480/575 VAC 3-Phase input and can output between 200 VDC - 450 VDC, 200 amps max. The connector is a Yazaki-CHAdeMO, 120A rated. Here are the Blink Specs. Here is an intoduction to the CHAdeMO standard...

Whats the hell do you want an expensive DC Fast Charge when 3-phase AC is already available. Just plug in the sleek Mennekes adapter without heavy hi-current cord, just using simple cord. with charging power up to 44kW. Only above 100kW DC-Charging make sense.

 

[TEG]

I think 'Eberhard' is on a mission to convince the USA to embrace the Mennekes standard.
Is this work related, or just a personal opinion? I haven't been seeing or hearing much about interest in that for the USA, and yeah, CHAdeMO deployments would seem to lower interest even more.

A BRUSA 22kW in every EV, and a Mennekes at every stop. A laudable vision.
http://jurjendejong.wordpress.com/2...-standard-for-ev-charging-in-the-netherlands/
http://elbil.pbworks.com/f/MENNEKES+and+EV.pdf

But this is a CHAdeMO topic, so we have gone off topic!...

 

[Lloyd]

In a recent video, the communications manager for Tesla indicates that 'Fast Charging' will be an innovation on the model S. Although early in the interview she says she can't talk about it see time stamp at 4:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pW1vV2d-9c

 

[Norbert]

In a recent video, the communications manager for Tesla indicates that 'Fast Charging' will be an innovation on the model S. Although early in the interview she says she can't talk about it see time stamp at 4:20

I would think what she means is that the specifics of fast charging haven't been determined yet.

 

[dsm363]

I like how when she mentions the Model S he asks "Is that another car your company makes" and she says "That's the model we just looked at".
I wish they'd just confirm that it'll have DC fast charging but maybe they're waiting to see which standard looks like it'll win.

 

[Lloyd]

Looks like this J1772 with DC fast charging is likely to be in the top running. This slide show was previously reported in another thread.

http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/earthobservationsSCC/IEEE_SAE_J1772_Update_10_02_08_Gery_Kissel.pdf