Its probably still worth adding the licensing fee portion to the base car and then charging a fee for turn on. There's no way Tesla makes money on the 300 using a mobile tech. They probably actually lose money on it. My tech didn't remove the bumper. He did pull the frunk though. Either way he was still there about an hour dinking around with it and checking for the software. He eventually just confirmed the car acknowledged it on his laptop and told me to call Tesla if it doesnt show up on the screen in a few hours. It eventually did show up onm its own and all is well.
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Tesla 3 Performance v. Porsche 911 4S
- Thread starter pnoble
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- Model 3 Tesla Inc.
Its probably still worth adding the licensing fee portion to the base car and then charging a fee for turn on. There's no way Tesla makes money on the 300 using a mobile tech. They probably actually lose money on it. My tech didn't remove the bumper. He did pull the frunk though. Either way he was still there about an hour dinking around with it and checking for the software. He eventually just confirmed the car acknowledged it on his laptop and told me to call Tesla if it doesnt show up on the screen in a few hours. It eventually did show up onm its own and all is well.
Porsche does nickel and dime things to death. I confirmed they want 330 for the folding mirrors. They also want another 450 to be able to fast charge at 150kW. I wonder how many people will miss out on that because they bury it in the options menu for a minuscule amount on a 200k car. Theres no reason for that not to be standard. The premium package is also made up of things that are standard on any normal sort of luxury car in the 100k price range. Maybe they could pull out cooled seats but at 3400 its a dumb package. The wheel options all suck too. The best is the mission type but it appears you have to get those with that white rim around them no matter your paint.
I mean I'm not the market for it cause I cant afford it anyways but if I was I'd have a real hard time buying it over a Model S.
I mean I'm not the market for it cause I cant afford it anyways but if I was I'd have a real hard time buying it over a Model S.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Why?
Your way they pay the license on every car they build.
Current way they only pay it if the owner pays for the whole thing.
if they lost money on it they wouldn't do it.
Remember, they changed TO this method.
That'd only make any sense at all if they determined it was cheaper than putting it in every car (which is what they did before this)
Ok, here's some example numbers.
let's say it costs Tesla $100 to roll a truck and do an hour of labor from a mobile tech.
And the hardware and license costs $200.
Such that Tesla ONLY breaks even.
Now let's say they build 300,000 Model 3s this year, and half the owners want/use homelink.
YOUR way they spend $60,000,000 on hardware/license costs, and get $0.00 income for the 150k cars that don't "turn it on" and they get $45,000,000 from the 150k users who pay the $300 to "turn it on"
Loss of 15 million a year to Tesla.
The way Tesla is doing it, they instead break exactly even.
Obviously you can tweak the numbers (and use percent) lots of ways... but the above is exactly the sort of math Tesla would've run to make the decision in the first place
And since they actually know the real costs of the parts, license, and labor.... and they know the % of existing fleet that actually uses homelink.... unless they're completely incompetent at math we can conclude this method is cheaper than the previous one for them.
I think its fast disappearing pricing model. It has worked well for Porsche for sure, but markets change. The ritual of customizing your car: the fact that most of their cars are custom ordered and their custom manufacture is obviously highly refined, though no doubt extremely costly too.
There has been a lot of research on choice in the market place; that too much choice actually leads to lower levels of purchase. It is believed, for example, that Trader Joe's industry topping revenues per square foot (and profits too) is related to the fact that they offer far less choice than traditional supermarkets. (3,000 SKUs versus 35,000 SKUs for an average supermarket, if I remember correctly).
On another front: the SAAS software market typically offers three choices: 'good, better, best'. I'm sure there is a lot of research behind this approach.
Sound familiar? It is exactly the approach Tesla takes!
I'm personally a big convert. I began to find Porsche's pricing approach really annoying. I always wanted the best but it began to grate on me that everything was extra.
I bought my Tesla with five clicks, total. Absolutely no choice other than color for me since I was committed to getting the fastest version I could, especially considering the princely sum of $6,000 for the privilege!
The automotive market is in the early stages of an incredible transition away from ownership towards autonomous transportation as a service. I think it will happen faster not slower than median expectations.
When the Taycan configurator came on-line last year, I priced out a 'minimally acceptable', for me, 4S. MSRP was somewhere just shy of $150K. Sorry, but not worth another $100k over my Model 3 - no matter how much leather they put in the interior.
Took my old, lowly, 944 out for a spin yesterday. I've owned it since 1987. Funny thing is that I had to charge IT'S battery before I could drive it... Driving it is like wearing a well broken in pair of shoes. (The pair of shoes your wife wanted you to throw away years ago, but you just can't...
) I can go for months without driving it, yet the shifting/clutching technique comes back almost automatically. I guess that is how the 356 guys feel - enjoying their cars for what they are, while knowing the 911 eclipsed the 356 decades ago. Needs to get a smog check soon - and I need to give it a little TLC beforehand. So that is one of my projects during the current "shelter in place" madness.
Took my old, lowly, 944 out for a spin yesterday. I've owned it since 1987. Funny thing is that I had to charge IT'S battery before I could drive it... Driving it is like wearing a well broken in pair of shoes. (The pair of shoes your wife wanted you to throw away years ago, but you just can't...
) I can go for months without driving it, yet the shifting/clutching technique comes back almost automatically. I guess that is how the 356 guys feel - enjoying their cars for what they are, while knowing the 911 eclipsed the 356 decades ago. Needs to get a smog check soon - and I need to give it a little TLC beforehand. So that is one of my projects during the current "shelter in place" madness.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Needsdecaf
Active Member
OP, thanks for your thoughts and interesting observations.
As a Porsche owner, including a 911 that I just got rid of, and a Porsche fan for half of forever, the brand is an interesting one. Because there are SO MANY models (I think that at it's peak, there were 21 different variants of 991 series you could buy, and that's before options!) and the car's extensive history, that it attracts a very wide spectrum of buyers. People buy Porsches and 911's for a multitude of reasons. To that end, there are many things people will appreciate about them. What it says about them, how it looks in the garage, the racing, the performance, the craftsmanship, the individuality, the group activities, the engineering, etc. And all of that will influence how you view the car when you no longer own one.
I owned my LRAWD model 3 for a little over a year and now it's been replaced by a Performance. And to me, I feel like owning the Tesla has made me want to drive the 911 less....but when I do drive it, I appreciate the 911 for what it is even more. And even shaped my decision to get rid of it in favor of another. I'll elaborate. Hopefully I don't lose you.
911's have spanned so many years, and there are so many different flavors even in one generation, that you can have two cars that feel COMPLETELY different, and offer much different sensations, even though they are very, very similar. And when you start going into the back catalog, each generation feels subtly different to the next. Case in point, the outgoing generation, the 991.2, featured a model called the Carrera T. This car was, obstensibly, not much different than a base Carrera 2. Same engine. Same brakes. Same body. Same wheel sizes. And yet...they feel very different. The T's suspension is fettled differently, it's got different gearing, less sound deadening, slightly different engine tuning. It all added up to a much different feeling car.
All of this is a long way of saying, there are many different expectations to have of a 911, and many different experiences offered by them. Get that combination wrong, and you might end up with your expectations unfulfilled. Get it right, and they can be exceeded mightily.
Back to the Tesla. For me, the Model 3 simply is an amazing daily driver. The visibility, the quick steering, the overall performance and, most crucially, the pin-point accuracy at which you can raise and lower your speed can't be beat on a day to day basis. As I said, I used to take the 911 out when I didn't have anywhere important to go, plus some pleasure rides. Most of those in the former category were replaced by the Tesla, because it is so enjoyable to drive on mundane drives. The precision at which you can use it brings a special joy to it's own. Being able to zip past traffic, speed up and stop on a dime, it does bring joy to me for some truly boring drives, like dropping the kids off at karate. To me, the Tesla is unmatched in this category. You can actually ENJOY commuting, runs to the grocery store, etc. Other EV's have this to a certain extent, but there is some magic in the Tesla's combination of light weight (for an EV) responsiveness and speed, and quickness of response that's yet to be matched by another EV. I drove an ETron - fabulous car, feels slow and ponderous. I drove a Taycan Turbo. Wicked fast, but again, feels heavy. Responses feel muted. Feels like a sedan, not a sports car.
What the Tesla doesn't do, to me, is replace the 911 on those journeys where the ONLY reason I am going out is to drive, and to feel the road. To be connected to the machine and to feel it reacting to the road. Feel it flowing with the pavement. Feel the precision of the components beneath you. If you start looking for that, the Tesla falls flat, quickly. The steering offers zero feedback. The seats have almost zero lateral bolstering. The suspension, good up to 6 or 7/10ths and about 80 MPH, starts to lose composure quickly above that. There's no mechanical feedback to indicate speed beyond the wind noise. No "reward" for increasing your speed beyond tire squeal. That's why the 911 felt even more special when I drove it for those reasons.
The other thing I appreciate in my 911 is the craftsmanship, the build quality. The quality of the interior components are worlds better than the Model 3. Something as simple as the side of the center tunnel shows this. In the Model 3 it's pretty flimsy and insubstantial. The 911 has layers of components making up the structure. There is an engineering elegance to it. And, IMO, this becomes more and more apparent the older you go in the 911 catalog.
I never used my 911 as a daily. You could, as many have, but to me it's frustrating to do so. Too much feedback, would get irritating to me on my long commute. Conversely, the Model 3 has made my commute as almost effortless as can be. I really ENJOY driving it to and from work. It's very satisfying.
I had been looking to get rid of my early 991.1 for about a year now. IMO, as the first 911 with electric power steering, they got that wrong. It's not right for the car and robs it of a lot of the feel that you buy a 911 for. Likewise, the manual transmission is incredibly frustrating as the gearing is terrible to use in the US. 2nd gear is good for 72 MPH at redline, and that's not much more where peak power is (7,600 vs. 7,200 RPM). Peak torque is over 5,000 RPM. During ordinary driving, you don't ever hit peak torque except in first, and maybe second, when wringing it out. The 991.2's turbo engine helps this a bit. But I wanted a more raw and visceral machine, so I traded in my 991.1 and will be going to something different when the market cools. Maybe a 997.2 Turbo, or a 991.2 Carrera T. Or a 2016 991.1 GTS with a PDK. The cars with a little more verve.
In the meantime, I will enjoy driving my Model 3. I'll celebrate it for what it is, and not lament what it isn't. It's not a Porsche, not even a Taycan. And that's no bad thing....
As a Porsche owner, including a 911 that I just got rid of, and a Porsche fan for half of forever, the brand is an interesting one. Because there are SO MANY models (I think that at it's peak, there were 21 different variants of 991 series you could buy, and that's before options!) and the car's extensive history, that it attracts a very wide spectrum of buyers. People buy Porsches and 911's for a multitude of reasons. To that end, there are many things people will appreciate about them. What it says about them, how it looks in the garage, the racing, the performance, the craftsmanship, the individuality, the group activities, the engineering, etc. And all of that will influence how you view the car when you no longer own one.
I owned my LRAWD model 3 for a little over a year and now it's been replaced by a Performance. And to me, I feel like owning the Tesla has made me want to drive the 911 less....but when I do drive it, I appreciate the 911 for what it is even more. And even shaped my decision to get rid of it in favor of another. I'll elaborate. Hopefully I don't lose you.
911's have spanned so many years, and there are so many different flavors even in one generation, that you can have two cars that feel COMPLETELY different, and offer much different sensations, even though they are very, very similar. And when you start going into the back catalog, each generation feels subtly different to the next. Case in point, the outgoing generation, the 991.2, featured a model called the Carrera T. This car was, obstensibly, not much different than a base Carrera 2. Same engine. Same brakes. Same body. Same wheel sizes. And yet...they feel very different. The T's suspension is fettled differently, it's got different gearing, less sound deadening, slightly different engine tuning. It all added up to a much different feeling car.
All of this is a long way of saying, there are many different expectations to have of a 911, and many different experiences offered by them. Get that combination wrong, and you might end up with your expectations unfulfilled. Get it right, and they can be exceeded mightily.
Back to the Tesla. For me, the Model 3 simply is an amazing daily driver. The visibility, the quick steering, the overall performance and, most crucially, the pin-point accuracy at which you can raise and lower your speed can't be beat on a day to day basis. As I said, I used to take the 911 out when I didn't have anywhere important to go, plus some pleasure rides. Most of those in the former category were replaced by the Tesla, because it is so enjoyable to drive on mundane drives. The precision at which you can use it brings a special joy to it's own. Being able to zip past traffic, speed up and stop on a dime, it does bring joy to me for some truly boring drives, like dropping the kids off at karate. To me, the Tesla is unmatched in this category. You can actually ENJOY commuting, runs to the grocery store, etc. Other EV's have this to a certain extent, but there is some magic in the Tesla's combination of light weight (for an EV) responsiveness and speed, and quickness of response that's yet to be matched by another EV. I drove an ETron - fabulous car, feels slow and ponderous. I drove a Taycan Turbo. Wicked fast, but again, feels heavy. Responses feel muted. Feels like a sedan, not a sports car.
What the Tesla doesn't do, to me, is replace the 911 on those journeys where the ONLY reason I am going out is to drive, and to feel the road. To be connected to the machine and to feel it reacting to the road. Feel it flowing with the pavement. Feel the precision of the components beneath you. If you start looking for that, the Tesla falls flat, quickly. The steering offers zero feedback. The seats have almost zero lateral bolstering. The suspension, good up to 6 or 7/10ths and about 80 MPH, starts to lose composure quickly above that. There's no mechanical feedback to indicate speed beyond the wind noise. No "reward" for increasing your speed beyond tire squeal. That's why the 911 felt even more special when I drove it for those reasons.
The other thing I appreciate in my 911 is the craftsmanship, the build quality. The quality of the interior components are worlds better than the Model 3. Something as simple as the side of the center tunnel shows this. In the Model 3 it's pretty flimsy and insubstantial. The 911 has layers of components making up the structure. There is an engineering elegance to it. And, IMO, this becomes more and more apparent the older you go in the 911 catalog.
I never used my 911 as a daily. You could, as many have, but to me it's frustrating to do so. Too much feedback, would get irritating to me on my long commute. Conversely, the Model 3 has made my commute as almost effortless as can be. I really ENJOY driving it to and from work. It's very satisfying.
I had been looking to get rid of my early 991.1 for about a year now. IMO, as the first 911 with electric power steering, they got that wrong. It's not right for the car and robs it of a lot of the feel that you buy a 911 for. Likewise, the manual transmission is incredibly frustrating as the gearing is terrible to use in the US. 2nd gear is good for 72 MPH at redline, and that's not much more where peak power is (7,600 vs. 7,200 RPM). Peak torque is over 5,000 RPM. During ordinary driving, you don't ever hit peak torque except in first, and maybe second, when wringing it out. The 991.2's turbo engine helps this a bit. But I wanted a more raw and visceral machine, so I traded in my 991.1 and will be going to something different when the market cools. Maybe a 997.2 Turbo, or a 991.2 Carrera T. Or a 2016 991.1 GTS with a PDK. The cars with a little more verve.
In the meantime, I will enjoy driving my Model 3. I'll celebrate it for what it is, and not lament what it isn't. It's not a Porsche, not even a Taycan. And that's no bad thing....
Beautifully written and so well said, Needsdecaf! I only get to have one car at a time having only two garage spaces and one wife! But if I didn't and I hadn't leased my 991.2 C4S, I would certainly have kept it at least for a while and eased out of it or maybe not. My observations were and are really from an either/or POV. If you have the space and the temperament, not to mention the income, to enjoy more than one car at a time, I would never, ever dissuade someone from also owning a 911. I really nearly acquired a fifth, 992 C4S, before switching to the M3P. But my Rolex/Apple Watch analogy might also have applied to the 911 after getting the M3P. Because virtually all of my travel is to/from work or into Manhattan: your 'daily driver' category. I actually ended up returning the 911 the evening before picking up the M3P so I didn't get a chance to really back and forth. Oh, well!
Needsdecaf
Active Member
Understood. I'm going to be waiting at least 6 months to see what the market does to the "desirable" 911's before making a move. It'll be interesting to see how much I do or do not miss it along the way.
One thing I didn't really touch upon was the social aspect of it. My local region of the PCA, Lone Star, is simply incredible. A great group, with a ton of activities of all sorts. From concours to HPDE to autocross to drives to tours to dinners, what have you. It's a wonderful bunch of people including many women. You don't have to be a petrolhead to fit in, even my wife and kids enjoy the events. I have to say that adds to things tremendously. It's not a bunch of preening peacocks, either. You're more than likely to see a 996 Carrera Tiptronic there than you are a GT3RS.
I've heard many regions with completely the opposite experience. I can see how that would turn you off of the brand quickly if it were the case.
Knightshade, the HomeLink module is manufactured, not licensed, by Gentex, according their annual report. They sell to virtually every auto manufacturer. They do have extensive patent protection and their profit margin so seem very healthy for an automotive component supplier, but I'd be surprised if they sell the unit for as much as $200 and if so it would not make economic sense for Tesla to sell it for $300 including a, say, $100 truck roll.
Let's say Tesla makes a 100% markup from their total cost. If so their unit cost would be $50 given the $100 truck roll. I think that might be a lot closer to the reality here.
I never did belong to a PCA so can’t say and maybe I missed something special but northern NJ might fall into the latter category! I know a few guys who were in the Ferrari club.....
mtndrew1
Active Member
I love it when people use the right tool for the job. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
SeaNile, driving style they are pretty much the same, I think. Same chassis. Just a little more weight and a little higher drag coefficient maybe. A few more subtle, evolutionary differences. But if the Y suits your lifestyle and you choose the MYP it will be little different to the M3P. Enjoy!
Man, you nailed what I felt when I was shopping! The 911 was really fun to drive, but I did wonder how quickly I would tire of driving it on a daily 45 minute commute on mostly boring roads. Or if it would be too noisy to take phone calls while driving, as I do a lot. Plus I do occasionally have to pick up 2 teens from school. And we don't have any canyons or other fun roads anywhere near where I live. The Tesla just felt like a much better driver's car for the type of driving I do.
The MYP is over my mental budget. My ideally spec'd M3 AWD is 51,490. Add the 2k boost upgrade and I'm still way less than the MYP.
I drive extremely conservatively and in my cars rarely see over 3000 rpms. I drive a GLA 45 AMG and "pushed" it to 3500rpms once!
This sums it up, several years ago I bought a Ferrari F360 manual. It was delivered by to me from a dealership in AZ. So it comes off the truck, I take it for a ride down the local 4 lane road just to get used to it and maybe topped 60. Next up was my wife and her friend. They take the same trip and when they return we start talking about how cool the car is etc. Told her how i really want to get used to the car before going "fast". She looked confused. Well how fast did you go she asked. 60 mph was my reply. How about you?" Ohhhhh, I only went 120 was her reply. Good times. Buying a red Ferrari to drive the speed limit.
You got me at the Lear jet, jbcarioca! I just watched the Smithsonian channel Air Disasters episode on Payne Stewart. I didn't realize just how absolutely bad ass the Lear jet was! Did you pilot it yourself?Frankly I cannot count all the vehicles I've owned. Brands: 27 cars and 9 aircraft. Dozens of both. There were a few repeats, some, like Porsche and Maserati were quite distinctly different model to model, Some were hard-core sports cars that made no compromise (e.g. Honda S600 and Morgan +8) most tried to seem usable although some (NSU RO80 and Mazda R100, where choices only made by a certified lunatic-Me!). Aircraft were like that too (Lear 25 was horrible for passengers but spectacular to pilots [Ground-41,000 feet in six minutes 36 seconds] and unsafe to novices). Cars were like that too, 1970's Ferrari, Maserati and US muscle cars were lethal to careless drivers.
I mention both of these vehicle types because I was for decades enamoured of seriously flawed machines that I could claim to have mastered. Nothing beats the ego boost, for example, of teaching somebody to achieve a LRJET type rating.
Then in 2013 I drove a Tesla Model S. My world was blown. At the time I owned a Porsche and an Audi that I thought well of for different reasons. That Model S totally changed my outlook. A year later I ended out with a P85D that I promptly made into a P85D the moment I could. It was huge but I loved it. It was huge and I hate large cars. But, that car was my joy and I doted on it. I resolved to never own another non-electric car
I ordered a Model P3D+ the instant I could and took delivery as soon as I could. Not so huge but quite delightful in every way. I like it better. But I needed another car for Brazil to replace my last ICE, and aging BMW. I don't like it but I want electric. Thus I tried the Jaguar I-Pace when it arrived. It have all the Jaguarness that sybaritic folks love but no OTA updates, no nice nav system that finds every charging option. I also tried the Audi e-Tron and nearly gagged with huge and sluggish. So, waiting for Tesla...
I am certain I'll love the Roadster, mostly because it is smaller and will have few sacrifices. In the meantime I'm adoring the P3D+.
FWIW, I've driven the X quite extensively, mostly in Southern Europe and have been astonished about how easy it is to navigate in very very tight places. So, my spouse and I speculate we'll end out with a Roadster and a PYD.
Anyway, we no longer think about airplanes and consider only Tesla. Why no airplanes? If the trip is within the same continent we just drive Tesla! If not, we often went commercial anyway, and flying is not as much fun as a Tesla is. Besides, the Tesla is infinitely cheaper.
Also the world no longer can tolerate such an absurd lifestyle. I loved it, but such a lifestyle is an affront to everything that I now believe. I read my own post and am ashamed of what I once did.
At least now, despite the gross excess of dual residences, both are solar powered, and we don't even use air conditioning in Rio.
From time to time I recall fondly a 964 Convertible I once had, even way back then the options on mine were more than half the total cost. It was great on snow (with Nokkians of course). Until the S nothing came close in snow, not even Range Rovers (too tall and cumbersome). So, even there Tesla won our minds and hearts.
Thrice in my life I have suspended judgement and bought shares based on my belief in a product. Those three were Honda (1967), Apple (2012) and Tesla (2014). I have tried to be disciplined as an investor, but these three sometimes think that product wins, so long as they do not run out of cash.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
So...I appreciate all the effort in your reply, but I'd say two things:
First- what "emotional" basis would there be for such a decision? Like- he suddenly decided he hated factory installing a part they were already factory installing and decided it'd be better to LOSE money by moving it post-sale... because... why?
Unlike you and I- Tesla actually knows the real numbers
They know the OEM cost of homelink (more on THAT in a second)
And they know what % of the fleet at the time they made the decision actually uses Homelink.
And they know the real cost of rolling a truck.
And presumably they can do the same basic math and cost calculations you just did.
And with all that info, and they same math, the only thing we can reasonably conclude is Tesla found removing it from being factory installed was cheaper in some way.
Speaking of-
The "homelink is licensed" for OEMs thing has been repeated all over the forums (and other forums) for several years now... I'd be curious to see a link to what you read that suggests it's not true?
Some examples from forums other than this one:
Automatic Garage Opener | Tesla
Homelink Upgrade Available from Tesla for SR/SR+ - Tesla Owners Online
And not even just on Tesla forums... Apparently the Chevy Volt did the same thing and again the license fee is given as the reason
No Garage Door opener..really? [Archive] - GM-Volt: Chevy Volt Forum
So I'd be very surprised to find out there's not a license required for each car it's installed in by OEMs- and apparently a lot of other people a lot of other places would be too.
That said- I'm not sure it matters to the math?
If the cost put one in a factory car is X dollars and that's made up of 100% hardware.... Or it's X dollars and that's make up of Y dollars of hardware and Z dollars of license/software... it's still X dollars cost to Tesla for every car, even the ones that won't use the feature.
So if they find it costs them less to NOT put one in every car and then offer it for the % (that they already have a good idea of the number of) that want it for $300 per car afterward- they'd make that switch... which they did... and it was cheaper to just keep putting em in every car they'd do that instead- which they didn't do.
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Knightshade, I had actually removed the post but you beat me to the punch. A bit of a rabbit hole of my own construction! What I read in Gentex's annual report is that they manufacture the unit themselves and sell to most all auto manufacturers. They had bought the product line and any related IP from Johnson Controls in 2013 before which they evidently licensed the IP.
Typically a company would include any of their IP value in the cost of the unit, I believe. Maybe there is indeed an additional license involved but I have to say that when one searches 'HomeLink license fee' all one finds that is relevant are Tesla forum posts and one Chevy Volt forum reference.
My originally intended point was that the HomeLink installation was the only blemish on the whole Tesla buying experience. Watching a mechanic literally take the front of my car apart in my garage a day after I bought it in order to install a little box seemed absurd. It took about an hour and included disconnecting the power to the main control unit not once but twice (the mechanic warned me it probably wouldn't work the first time). Then, because it was raining, he set up the unit inside the garage, not at the garage door and I had to reset it after figuring out what the problem was.
So just maybe there is some significant cost saving through this approach but I question if it is worth the somewhat negative customer experience, at least from my POV. Impressive that they come to your home, mind you!
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