Tesla 3 Performance v. Porsche 911 4S

[Zcd1]

Personally, I just transferred the little garage clicker from my old car and clipped it to my sun visor. That's about as much energy as I'm willing to expend to solve that "problem".

Best,

Indeed, though then you miss out on the location-based automatic opening and closing, which I’ve grown to really appreciate.

 

[jbcarioca]

You got me at the Lear jet, jbcarioca! I just watched the Smithsonian channel Air Disasters episode on Payne Stewart. I didn't realize just how absolutely bad ass the Lear jet was! Did you pilot it yourself?

I did. Even riskier I taught pilots to obtain the LRJET type rating. Bak in those years the Lear 23 was the worst (nearly half teh fleet crashed and were one of the prime forces for the creation of type ratings. Next was the Lear 25 which had spoilers instead of ailerons (every aircraft that did that had gigantic crash rates (e.g. Mitsubishi MU-2) and not by coincidence pilots had love/hate relationships. The early Lears (23,24,25) had been derived from a design for a fighter, so were overpowered, had superb responsiveness, 1960's ergonomics (controls differed between versions, even wing aerodynamics) but the type rating was LRJET for them all. Glorious to fly. The Payne Stewart affair seemed to be an aircraft maintenance issue having nothing to do with anything specific to Lear. Pressurization problems are very quickly terminal when flying at very high altitudes. Lears are almost all certified for 51,000 feet, far above commercial traffic, and flight crews mostly are required to wear oxygen masks above 41,000. Sorry, going off topic...
except that those owner/pilots of Lears tended to drive Porsche, Ferrari etc. I was not an exceptions to that rule.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Man, you nailed what I felt when I was shopping! The 911 was really fun to drive, but I did wonder how quickly I would tire of driving it on a daily 45 minute commute on mostly boring roads. Or if it would be too noisy to take phone calls while driving, as I do a lot. Plus I do occasionally have to pick up 2 teens from school. And we don't have any canyons or other fun roads anywhere near where I live. The Tesla just felt like a much better driver's car for the type of driving I do.

While I still had the 911, I took it to work, 3 times I think. My commute is from the Northern Houston suburbs to Downtown and let me tell you, the car is a nightmare in traffic here. A few reasons.

1. It's a manual with a heavy clutch, and there is a lot of traffic.
2. I drink coffee during my drive and the Porsche cupholders....meh.
3. Visibility during commuting is difficult given the number of trucks and bro-dozers around.
4. All concrete roads, many poor, lead to loud cabin noise. Fatigue and tough to make a phone call.
5. Straight roads, lots of traffic and cops = no opportunity to drive the car properly. As a result, frustrating.
6. NA engine is glorious at the top end....which you are never at during commuting. It's pretty torque-poor down low leading to having to work hard to drive it in traffic.

Now, if my commute was local, and involved some nice back roads maybe and a lot less traffic? Then yes, it would make a perfect daily. This is why when someone says "you can't daily a 911" I tell them BS, maybe YOU can't daily a 911, but it can be done.

I've had 0.9 mile commutes to work (really) and I've had 75 mile commutes to work (each way!). The most I've put on a vehicle in one year was 37k miles. The Model 3 was coming up on that at 34k, but then again, I have my wife's car and the 911. Back when I did the 37k I was single and only had one car, so I wonder if total work driving miles wasn't too far off. Point being is that it's all relative. Any car can be used on certain commutes, just depends on what yours is.

 

[mafpolo]

I've long been a Porsche guy. I've had a 911 for both as a weekend fun car and as a daily driver. Currently two Porsche cars in the garage. I have a Cayenne diesel and wife has a Panamera S e-hybrid. Between the 911 and the Model 3 from a driving perspective, I prefer the model 3. The instant acceleration and the regenerative braking are fun. I do wish Tesla would add optional exhaust notes for those of us that do love the sound of sport exhaust. The only thing I prefer about the 911 is fit and finish, as well as I have a dealer here but not a Tesla service center. Tesla is much better value, plus no trips to the gas station, and far less options to worry about (I give the Porsche dealer here a hard time about options...."are turn signals an option?" "What's the cost if you add a steering wheel?" A Porsche is not cheap to keep. After you write the check when you buy it.....it doesn't end there. Regular maintenance is outrageous. I do agree that Tesla should work a deal with homelink and have it as standard. My next request to Tesla is please get that fit, finish, and paint as good as it can get. There is more fun factor with the 3 than the 911. Many of my friends would say that this is blasphemy.

 

[BigNick]

I did. Even riskier I taught pilots to obtain the LRJET type rating. Bak in those years the Lear 23 was the worst (nearly half teh fleet crashed and were one of the prime forces for the creation of type ratings. Next was the Lear 25 which had spoilers instead of ailerons (every aircraft that did that had gigantic crash rates (e.g. Mitsubishi MU-2) and not by coincidence pilots had love/hate relationships. The early Lears (23,24,25) had been derived from a design for a fighter, so were overpowered, had superb responsiveness, 1960's ergonomics (controls differed between versions, even wing aerodynamics) but the type rating was LRJET for them all. Glorious to fly. The Payne Stewart affair seemed to be an aircraft maintenance issue having nothing to do with anything specific to Lear. Pressurization problems are very quickly terminal when flying at very high altitudes. Lears are almost all certified for 51,000 feet, far above commercial traffic, and flight crews mostly are required to wear oxygen masks above 41,000. Sorry, going off topic...
except that those owner/pilots of Lears tended to drive Porsche, Ferrari etc. I was not an exceptions to that rule.

This is the awesome thing about this forum, I can learn about interesting stuff like this.
I had wanted to get a pilot's license back in the late 80s to late 90s. Never had the cash for it then.

 

[Needsdecaf]

I've long been a Porsche guy. I've had a 911 for both as a weekend fun car and as a daily driver. Currently two Porsche cars in the garage. I have a Cayenne diesel and wife has a Panamera S e-hybrid. Between the 911 and the Model 3 from a driving perspective, I prefer the model 3. The instant acceleration and the regenerative braking are fun. I do wish Tesla would add optional exhaust notes for those of us that do love the sound of sport exhaust. The only thing I prefer about the 911 is fit and finish, as well as I have a dealer here but not a Tesla service center. Tesla is much better value, plus no trips to the gas station, and far less options to worry about (I give the Porsche dealer here a hard time about options...."are turn signals an option?" "What's the cost if you add a steering wheel?" A Porsche is not cheap to keep. After you write the check when you buy it.....it doesn't end there. Regular maintenance is outrageous. I do agree that Tesla should work a deal with homelink and have it as standard. My next request to Tesla is please get that fit, finish, and paint as good as it can get. There is more fun factor with the 3 than the 911. Many of my friends would say that this is blasphemy.

Cayenne Diesel here too. It rules. If you got "the fix" back a few years ago and are disappointed by the driving, make sure you get the recent software update. You should have received a service campaign for it. It really puts the car back almost to it's original state.

OP, sorry for the off topic discussion.

 

[Electric700]

Guilty as charged! But at least now I do it in a quiet and understated way. Much less provocative. Not showing them a hot Germanic booty! Just a modest sedan.

Glad you're enjoying your Tesla!

Please drive safely - you might save your own life, and someone else's also.

 

[Ritz]

Indeed, though then you miss out on the location-based automatic opening and closing, which I’ve grown to really appreciate.

There's a few ways of skinning that cat. I have SmartThings set up in my home. In theory, I can integrate it with my garage door opener and then the little fob on my keychain that opens my doors, flicks on the lights and all that other fun stuff could also automagically open the garage when I approach. In a perfect world, yep, sounds great. I just wish I had the time to fiddle with it....not these days.

Best,

 

[OCJoe]

I just read the entire thread end-to-end and really enjoyed the different perspectives. If asked to summarize this thread, I would say we are grappling with the question "Is M3P a credible alternative to a Porsche 911?" To summarize the conclusion: "Plenty of similarities but they are two very different cars and depending on your values, priorities and driving requirements you could make a good case for choosing either one. Some people even drive both!" I inferred a strong consensus that if you evaluate on absolute performance the 911 has a clear edge but if you consider price/performance it's hard to beat the M3P. Also the 911 has intangible appeal of racing heritage and a longstanding reputation for "pursuit of excellence" that a relatively new challenger like Tesla can't yet match.

I'm interested in your thoughts on a different but related topic. Suppose the question is not "Is the M3P suitable as a poor man's Porsche?" but rather "Can somebody eying a Toyota Camry/Ford Fusion/ Honda Accord/ Mazda M6/Chevy Malibu justify the additional cost to go with an M3SR+?"

Given that those interested in this thread are not Camry buyers, perhaps this should be a topic for a new thread... but there were so many thoughtful responses here I thought I'd pose the question.

Your thoughts?

 

[Ritz]

I just read the entire thread end-to-end and really enjoyed the different perspectives. If asked to summarize this thread, I would say we are grappling with the question "Is M3P a credible alternative to a Porsche 911?" To summarize the conclusion: "Plenty of similarities but they are two very different cars and depending on your values, priorities and driving requirements you could make a good case for choosing either one. Some people even drive both!" I inferred a strong consensus that if you evaluate on absolute performance the 911 has a clear edge but if you consider price/performance it's hard to beat the M3P. Also the 911 has intangible appeal of racing heritage and a longstanding reputation for "pursuit of excellence" that a relatively new challenger like Tesla can't yet match.

I'm interested in your thoughts on a different but related topic. Suppose the question is not "Is the M3P suitable as a poor man's Porsche?" but rather "Can somebody eying a Toyota Camry/Ford Fusion/ Honda Accord/ Mazda M6/Chevy Malibu justify the additional cost to go with an M3SR+?"

Given that those interested in this thread are not Camry buyers, perhaps this should be a topic for a new thread... but there were so many thoughtful responses here I thought I'd pose the question.

Your thoughts?

There are other bonuses that somewhat offset the initial capital cost of the M3P. The running costs, especially if you live in an area with inexpensive electricity, are significantly lower than even a small economy car. Where I live, electricity is about 11 cents a kilowatt hour. So for a little over 8 bucks I can drive 300-ish miles. Then there's the fact that you no longer have an engine to maintain, oil to change, various fluids to change (other than washer fluid and every few years...brake fluid), etc. And oddly enough, my 2020 M3P is cheaper to insure than my 3 year old muscle car, even though it is newer and was priced at about $20k more.

On the downside, in states (like mine) that assess property taxes on autos, there is an increased cost every year in the form a tax to The Man (Tm). And that tax is based on the market value of the car.

Best,

 

[AhwatukeeDad]

I used to have Porsche envy but now I have Model 3 performance envy.

I used to have Porsche envy, now I chuckle when I see someone driving a Porsche instead of a Model 3 Performance like I do...

 

[Fernand]

You guuuuuys! And all I've ever flown (and crashed) is Cessnas. So, here's another question. Say you can't avoid crashing - and the world around us sure makes the case for that - which would you rather crash in - a M3P or a 911?

 

[adhoc]

I too came to the M3P from a different line of perf car,
I didn't realize 'the world has changed' till 5 mins on
freeway driving home from delivery, although I had
driven roadster, S P85 etc etc.

besides instant torque, quiet speed, 1 pedal v 3 pedal
position & location of batt/drive train is amazing.

which leads me to ask, as I never understood how
porsche took a perfect track design, the mid engine
550 and let it die, developing the 356 then 911?

most every (even too late corvette) perf car manufacturer
has realized where the perf car engine is best located,
yet for some reason porsche moved away from mid engine,
creating all the bad handling compromises of rear engine weight?

for the life of me, I can't find any history as to why, anyone here
have an understanding of the move away from 550 design?

 

[wws]

...
which leads me to ask, as I never understood how
porsche took a perfect track design, the mid engine
550 and let it die, developing the 356 then 911?

most every (even too late corvette) perf car manufacturer
has realized where the perf car engine is best located,
yet for some reason porsche moved away from mid engine,
creating all the bad handling compromises of rear engine weight?

for the life of me, I can't find any history as to why, anyone here
have an understanding of the move away from 550 design?

Not totally true. The 914 was a mid-engine design. The 924/944/968, while having the motor in the front, had the transaxle in the rear - giving them near 50/50 weight distribution. Then came the Boxster and Cayman - which also place the engine mid-ship.

While the Taycan doesn't appeal to me personally, if Porsche came out with a EV version of the Boxster and/or Cayman (and kept the pricing under control), I'd be over at the dealership with my nose pressed against the glass.

 

[pnoble]

I did. Even riskier I taught pilots to obtain the LRJET type rating. Bak in those years the Lear 23 was the worst (nearly half teh fleet crashed and were one of the prime forces for the creation of type ratings. Next was the Lear 25 which had spoilers instead of ailerons (every aircraft that did that had gigantic crash rates (e.g. Mitsubishi MU-2) and not by coincidence pilots had love/hate relationships. The early Lears (23,24,25) had been derived from a design for a fighter, so were overpowered, had superb responsiveness, 1960's ergonomics (controls differed between versions, even wing aerodynamics) but the type rating was LRJET for them all. Glorious to fly. The Payne Stewart affair seemed to be an aircraft maintenance issue having nothing to do with anything specific to Lear. Pressurization problems are very quickly terminal when flying at very high altitudes. Lears are almost all certified for 51,000 feet, far above commercial traffic, and flight crews mostly are required to wear oxygen masks above 41,000. Sorry, going off topic...
except that those owner/pilots of Lears tended to drive Porsche, Ferrari etc. I was not an exceptions to that rule.

jbcarioka, one has the pleasure to meet some remarkable people on these message boards to be sure! All my flying has been entirely by others! 100K+ a year safely (for everyone) outside the cockpit.

 

[adhoc]

Not totally true. The 914 was a mid-engine design. The 924/944/968, while having the motor in the front, had the transaxle in the rear - giving them near 50/50 weight distribution. Then came the Boxster and Cayman - which also place the engine mid-ship.

While the Taycan doesn't appeal to me personally, if Porsche came out with a EV version of the Boxster and/or Cayman (and kept the pricing under control), I'd be over at the dealership with my nose pressed against the glass.

actually, your intro of 914, boxster & cayman illustrate
the difference to making their proven best performers
substandard to the 911 rear engine designs?

clearly the 550 was superior to many higher hp competitors
in its day, because of proper weight distribution.

other marques, corvette for example have/had nearly
50-59 weight distribution, but as covette engineers described
there was no other way to put hp to use other than mid engine.

so, question still remains why does porsche keep 911 as
it’s flagship knowing from the 50’s their mid engine designs
we’re far superior? the current day boxster & cayman would
be track monsters given 911 hp & attention?

 

[Uncle Paul]

Not sure, but as long as people keep buying the very profitable 911s, Porsche will continue to make them. The racing heritage gives cred to the street cars image.

 

[adhoc]

Not sure, but as long as people keep buying the very profitable 911s, Porsche will continue to make them. The racing heritage gives cred to the street cars image.

so, there is a substitute, as long as people keep buying?
aren't the racing heritage porsche's mostly mid engined?

 

[mafpolo]

Took this pic of a friend of mine's GT a few weeks ago.

 

[Jverhelst]

Well, I have to admit you provided a lot of laughs with this one. I'm sorry you have to work so hard to feel good about buying the Porsche. The comparisons are like apples and oranges (tho no Ford Camry's (sic) vs formula 1) but I don't think in the way you intend. The fact is that once you have driven a 3 with an open mind, all of the ICE cars feel pretty dinosaur, tho possibly quite thrilling (Mclaren, Ferrari, and , yes, Porsche) but so is a horse ride if you get a really lively one! As far as "performance" goes, on the street you are gonna get mauled every time just because this thing has "throttle response" that makes that term obsolete. How many people do use the launch control on their Porsche? Dragstrip? Stoplight? I don't have a single friend (10?) that has a Porsche that has ever taken it to a drag strip. I haven't asked, but after one or two tries, I bet none of 'em still use launch control--I know that launching hard on the street is noisy and most people would feel like an ass doing it. The Model 3 will destroy your 4S even with launch control at any street legal (or even likely!) speeds (check out Nico Rosberg losing to one in 0-60 with a GT2RS!). It won't have the vroom vroom (tho you could probably figure out a way to add it for $100000!), but it will have a transmission that is just as engaging. As for track work, good video of a 3 passing a GT3 is out there, etc. etc.
In the end, you are right about one thing: you can't really compare them, but it because they are from different eras. Just in case you didn't read my previous post, I have owned and tracked RX-7 FD,e92 M3, 997.1 GT3; I still own and have tracked Series 1M, and I also own Macan S, and a GTI. The M3P+ makes them all feel like hobbies. So sorry about the clean, no nonsense interior and mediocre (by current standards, which is to say pretty good!) build quality (tho one of the best sound systems around!). It still blows my mind that they put in a wishbone front suspension--try finding that on a modern Porsche!

sure, I know what you mean...

I drive a model S myself, so I know what the advantage is.. the instant torque and the snappy response to your foot pressing down the accelerator... and yes I agree that in some way an ICE drive-train feels like a dinosaur compared to an all electric drive train.. BUT when you are driving on mountainous roads or just driving “spirited” an EV just lacks - to speak Porsche - soul... and no, I don’t think even the Taycan has soul or soul electrified.

An EV - to me - is sterile. It’s fast yes and it might even be faster than a 992 S ( although according to zeperf.com it’s not ) but there are a few issues :

drive it hard and you will be charging all the time or looking for a charger.

it’s not engaging. Anyone can put his foot on a pedal and everytime de M3P wil do exactly thesame thing without any drama.


Also : it remains apples to oranges. The M3P is a lovely car to drive in densely populated areas with lots of traffic and traffic jams. A 911 is more suited to driving in more remote areas where you can still enjoy a nice drive.

But to each his own