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Tesla 3-phase onboard charger single phase capabilities

Discussion in 'Europe' started by arnis, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. arnis

    arnis Member

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    Can anybody share some knowledge of first and second generation Model S/X onboard charger,
    specifically European 3-phase capable ones.
    All recent Tesla's support (Model 3 not confirmed) 3x16A charging. And definitely 1x16A charging.
    But can they utilize 1x32A supply at full power? We know that in US, 3 modules are combined permanently.
    Can two of three stand-alone circuits combine their power to do the job?
    We know that dual charger can do that. But that is extinct species.
    Also likely 3x24A charger can handle 1x24A. Again, can it actually handle 7.2kW rate.

    Really valuable information due to EVSE installation plans.
     
  2. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    If you use the European Tesla charging equipment (UMC and Wall Connector) with single phase, they will distribute the power to all 3 phases on the vehicle inlet. That will allow the on-board charger to exceed the amperage of a single phase, so 1x32A is possible. Public charging points that are single phase only connect one phase on the vehicle inlet, so you are limited to 1x16A or 1x24A depending on the OBC's capability.

    There was some talk that there would be an internal switch implemented that would overcome this restriction and distribute the single phase power to the other phases in the OBC, but I don't know if it was ever put in place.
     
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  3. arnis

    arnis Member

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    #3 arnis, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
    Ok. Therefore likely gen1 onboard chargers could not do that.
    Now we need to verify:
    a) can new gen2 chargers do that (Model S, Model X)
    b) can Model 3 do that (this one might take a while as no type2 equipped Model3's have been made)
     
  4. arg

    arg Supporting Member

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    I am 99% sure the post-facelift units can do 32A single phase (presumably by internal bridging).

    In the UK, all Model S ever sold here can do 32A single phase. Originally, they did it by fitting the 2nd charger even if you hadn't ordered it (and imposing a software limitation so you couldn't use it above 16A on three-phase unless you paid for it). At the time, cars supplied elsewhere in Europe didn't get this special treatment and could only charge at 16A single phase unless bridged externally by non-standard EVSE like the UMC.

    With the facelift cars they can't do it that way, so they must have implemented another solution; it's conceivable it's still UK-specific, but that seems unlikely.
     
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  5. PaulusdB

    PaulusdB Mayor Gnomus Vintage Limb

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    Paging our local expert... @widodh
     
  6. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT Quickish

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    My car does 40A single phase or 32A x three phase.
    Early facelift in Australia, which should be same as Europe.
     
  7. arnis

    arnis Member

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    So it can actually do 22kW rate? Dual charger?
    32Ax3x230V=~22kW
    If it can do 40A single, then it can definitely do a trick with combining stuff.
    Though Tesla's EVSE can do the trick (which EVSE did you use?).
     
  8. widodh

    widodh Model S 85kWh

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    Thanks!

    My knowledge isn't with the latest Model S, but from what I've heard and read a EU Model S can charge 32A single phase or up to 3x24A.
     
  9. arg

    arg Supporting Member

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    That is quite surprising - I thought that all facelift cars had the new charger which can't do 32A three-phase (only 24A). Maybe with your car being "early facelift" it still has the older dual charger setup.

    It's quite possible EU cars could also do 40A single phase, but I've not heard of anybody testing it since single-phase EVSE above 32A is very rare here.

    Do you see the 40A with an Australian special head on the Tesla UMC (none of the heads available here go above 32A), or with standard EVSE/public chargepoints, or both?
     
  10. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT Quickish

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    Sorry, my mistake.
    My car is the normal charger, but 3phase capable. It's not the upgraded charger, or the old dual charger.
    My car can do 16A x 3 x 240V or 40A x 1 x 240V, so 11.52kW on a 3 phase source, or 9.6kW on a single phase source.
    The upgraded charger can do 24A x 3 x 240V (17.28kW) on a 3 phase source. I'm not sure if the upgraded charger can do more than 40A on a single phase, but I don't think so.
    The dual chargers are 32A x 3 x 240V, and I think 40A x 2 x 240V on single phase.
     
  11. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT Quickish

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    Sorry, I mis-typed. Mine can do 16A x 3 x 240V (not 32A).
    In single phase it does 40A x 1 x 240V.
    If I paid to software unlock it, it could do 24A x 3 x 240V (not 32A, that's only the old dual charger).
    Sorry for the confusion, jet lag post.
     
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  12. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT Quickish

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    I have two HPWCs. An older single phase and a newer 3 phase.
    On the old single phase I get 40A @ 240V.
     
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  13. arnis

    arnis Member

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    As far we know, EVSE can be wired to have the same single phase (L1) on every pin of that mennekes plug.
    Therefore onboard charger capability can not be verified. Need to do the trick on public NON-TESLA EVSE,
    which definitely sends all the power on that one live pin.

    Except if that old HPWC does not have metal contacts at L2 and L3 locations.
     
  14. arg

    arg Supporting Member

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    I think that only applies to the UMC when used with the blue commando plug 'head'. The Tesla HPWC (now called 'WC' in Europe) doesn't common the L pins unless you wire it that way yourself ignoring the installation instructions. The N.America HPWC is different (with the single phase Tesla plug); Australia and Hong Kong seem to have received some early HPWCs apparently based on the original N.America version (single phase but with a type2 plug fitted - I don't know how they are wired), before the three-phase (EU) version was available.

    Beware that a Type2 EVSE with single phase L commoned to L1/L2/L3 can damage other EVs - notably the Renault Zoe.

    For a very short time, Tesla UK had persuaded a third-party chargepoint installer (ChargeMaster) to modify their chargepoints to have L1/L2/L3 commoned. They quickly decided this was a bad idea and went out and replaced all the modified chargepoints with standard ones.
     
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  15. arnis

    arnis Member

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    So if it is done, benefits of faster charging on Tesla would apply (if any older model did not support shunting within the charger).
    But this method incompatible with Type2 standard, therefore not used (any more) and likely newer Tesla charger can do it.

    Anyways, it is reasonable to install one dual stand-alone 1x32A EVSE, rather than one dual 3x16A (keeping in mind this would not be
    Tesla specific place, but rather public spot) to have the fastest average charging speed of any EV.
    Keeping in mind 32A per phase limit applies no matter what. This is what bothered me.
     
  16. arg

    arg Supporting Member

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    What you really want is 2x 32A-three-phase EVSE with communications to share the power between them - so that you can have any reasonable combination of cars plugged in: 2x32A-single-phase, 2x16A-three-phase or 1x32a-three-phase.

    In theory, two of the Tesla WC will do this (even for non-Tesla EVs), but:
    • They are tethered, so won't support type1 cars like the pre-facelift Nissan Leaf.
    • It is not entirely clear that the Tesla power sharing will do 2x32A-single-phase. You would definitely have to swap the wiring of the output connector (rotate L1/L2/L3) so that it has a chance of working - such that the controller sees the first car drawing 32A on L1 and the second car drawing 32A on L2 - but I am not certain whether Tesla's software allows for that case.
    There are some other EVSE around with power sharing, but I don't know of any particular ones to recommend.
     
  17. arnis

    arnis Member

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    As I said, 3-phase EV's are not common enough to make installation costs skyrocket.
    Also almost no Tesla can accept 22kW. Let's be fair, that is extremely rare and it will get much worse.
    Can't exclude J1772 vehicles, not jet.
     

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