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Tesla App Utility plan configuration: Multiple Peaks, Buy/Sell Behavior, etc

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By setting the sell rate to zero it encourages the PWs to not export power to the grid for that period. Conversely, if the buy rate is set to the lowest value (e.g. $.01/kwh) does that encourage the PWs to import power from the grid to power the home during that period, rather than using stored PW energy?
In the US, unless on Storm Watch, the PWs will not import power from the grid. This is because Tesla believes everyone will be taking the solar tax credit and you can only charge the PWs from a solar source. That decided to do this so we all did not have to keep detailed records of how much energy we got from the grid vs got from solar, implying it was 100%. Note this is theoretically only for 5 years so in the next few years we might see a shift in how this works.
 
In the US, unless on Storm Watch, the PWs will not import power from the grid. This is because Tesla believes everyone will be taking the solar tax credit and you can only charge the PWs from a solar source. That decided to do this so we all did not have to keep detailed records of how much energy we got from the grid vs got from solar, implying it was 100%. Note this is theoretically only for 5 years so in the next few years we might see a shift in how this works.
When I said “import power from the grid”, I meant that the power be used to directly power the home, not charge the PW batteries.
 
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Thanks @JayClark. Changing the sell rates to $0/Kwh for all periods except Peak resulted in the PWs powering the house during Peak as I wanted. However, when Peak ended at 9PM the PWs were still partially powering the house. The screenshot below is 10 minutes after Peak ended. The PWs continued to partially power the house until they drained down to the 75 percent reserve I set for testing. Previously when I was using the “Cost Savings” mode, after Peak ended the PWs would go into standby to preserve preserve the charge level, and begin powering the house from the grid. Is there a way to “trick” the PWs into doing this (similar to the $0/kWh trick)? I’m not sure why it should be necessary to trick the PWs to get it to behave like the legacy “Cost Savings“ mode Tesla.

View attachment 757956
Yup. I agree there should be simple controls to verbosely be able to dictate the exact flows, when we want. So instead, we have to play with the configs to get what we want. I've given up complaining about it (never seen that work anywhere on these forums) and simply try to work around the stuff I don't like - which is still better than any alternative systems I've been able to find out there on the market still.

So for you, is the situation (where it keeps powering the house into the off-peak period after the 9pm peak period) occurring on every single week day, or just Fridays? The other thing to keep in mind, at least in my case, the phone app can be delayed and at times and will show "old" flows that actually ended 5-30 minutes into the past, possibly more, for a few moments or minutes after the phone "app" is loaded. The only way to to know what your real time power flows are for sure is by loading the web interface directly from your local gateway address. I've added a bookmark on my phone to a web address that takes me directly to the local web interface when ever I feel I must know the real situation. I don't trust the app for real time information if I'm about to make a configuration change decision. Regardless, I have seen this behavior you mention after 9pm peak too, as verified via the local gateway web interface....

I've run into what you have but it's only happened on Fridays where it keeps powering the house after my 9pm peak ends It never does this Monday-Thursday when I have my normal week day peaks configured for the "next day". On other days, I have initially thought I was seeing this occur also, but when I checked the local web interface it turned out the phone app (incorrectly) was simply showing me delayed power flows but the system on mon-thursday actually did stop powering the house, which I later verify by looking at the chart and sure enough if did show it stopped right at 9pm mon-thursday even though the realtime flows view of the app (views right at 9:01-9:15pm-ish) seemed to show it still powering the house.

The best I can figure this is only occurring on Friday's for me because I had only off-peak or super-off-peak configured for the weekend. I.E. there are no peaks scheduled after my Friday 9pm peak period ends. The system seems to think since there is no peak for the next two days it can optimize costs (I,e. cost saving mode) by powering the house for a little longer down to my reserve level because it knows it has two days to replenish the PWs where there are no peak periods. This seems like a programming logic bug to me given the costs I've setup having set 0.00 sell values for any of my on or off peaks, and given the round trip Powerwall Charge/discharge inefficiencies of powering the house during off peak when our off peaks costs are so very low. So hopefully they do eventually fix that, but maybe it's intentional. Not sure.

Anyway, my workaround (so far) that works well enough for me is that I setup a "mid-peak" for a few hours around the mid-day time frame on my satuday/sunday weekend schedule. The mid-peak is setup with 0.00 sell value. With this setup the system will charge the PWs all morning, and then will continue charging the PW ( more slowly) with solar left over after powering the house through my "trick" mid-day mid-peak period. It doesn't discharge the PW but does charge the PWs more slowly for this short mid-peak period. And after the mid-day peak period ends, it resumes sending all solar to the PW. This works fine for me because I can still easily get to 100% by the end of saturday since it's only a short mid-peak window, and the house doesn't usually use much power at these times on weekends. This repeats on Sunday, but I'm already at 100% so the powering the house first during my short mid-peak period really doesn't matter because it's generally already powering the house from solar since the PW is at 100%.

Tangentially, TLDR (clearly) Now, having said all this, when house loads and PV generation fluctuate near equilibrium (house load nearly equal to PV generation), power walls flows will jump around at times as the systems fights to control and balance flows to align with desired configuation. At these times it will look like it's powering the house or sending power to the grid when this is not desired, and it probably is for a few moments (minutes?). This is normal in any systems I've ever used or seen tested. The way these systems have to ramp up and down voltages and frequencies to control and balance flows in multiple directions (to/from PVs, PW(s), Grid, House) is usually accomplished via some averaging algorithms. And these algorithms are always a compromise between being too direct and then prone to oscillation, or slower to react yet more stable. I feel like the gateway/PW system strikes a reasonable balance. In addition, during these times it seems clear if a particular balancing "oscillation" event causes a "pull" of power from the grid, when it shouldn't, it will in turn for a moment send a balancing load "back" to the grid to balance the unintentional "pull' from the grid.

One more thing I may try this coming weekend is setting up 0.00 buy AND sell values for all off-peak periods during the week and weekend schedules, and then remove my short mid-peak periods (as a test) for the weekend. If it still powers the house after my 9pm peak period ends (as confirmed via the local web interface, not the phone application) from the PW with an 0.0 off-peak buy and sell values set, on Friday night, then I'm guessing Tesla does have a bug that I hope they will eventually recognize and fix even though I know there is nothing we can do to influence that I'm sure. I can't imagine this behavior would be intentional even if they think they know how to do "cost savings" better than us with manual configurations for our particular situations.
 
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Yup. I agree there should be simple controls to verbosely be able to dictate the exact flows, when we want. So instead, we have to play with the configs to get what we want. I've given up complaining about it (never seen that work anywhere on these forums) and simply try to work around the stuff I don't like - which is still better than any alternative systems I've been able to find out there on the market still.

So for you, is the situation (where it keeps powering the house into the off-peak period after the 9pm peak period) occurring on every single week day, or just Fridays? The other thing to keep in mind, at least in my case, the phone app can be delayed and at times and will show "old" flows that actually ended 5-30 minutes into the past, possibly more, for a few moments or minutes after the phone "app" is loaded. The only way to to know what your real time power flows are for sure is by loading the web interface directly from your local gateway address. I've added a bookmark on my phone to a web address that takes me directly to the local web interface when ever I feel I must know the real situation. I don't trust the app for real time information if I'm about to make a configuration change decision. Regardless, I have seen this behavior you mention after 9pm peak too, as verified via the local gateway web interface....

I've run into what you have but it's only happened on Fridays where it keeps powering the house after my 9pm peak ends It never does this Monday-Thursday when I have my normal week day peaks configured for the "next day". On other days, I have initially thought I was seeing this occur also, but when I checked the local web interface it turned out the phone app (incorrectly) was simply showing me delayed power flows but the system on mon-thursday actually did stop powering the house, which I later verify by looking at the chart and sure enough if did show it stopped right at 9pm mon-thursday even though the realtime flows view of the app (views right at 9:01-9:15pm-ish) seemed to show it still powering the house.

The best I can figure this is only occurring on Friday's for me because I had only off-peak or super-off-peak configured for the weekend. I.E. there are no peaks scheduled after my Friday 9pm peak period ends. The system seems to think since there is no peak for the next two days it can optimize costs (I,e. cost saving mode) by powering the house for a little longer down to my reserve level because it knows it has two days to replenish the PWs where there are no peak periods. This seems like a programming logic bug to me given the costs I've setup having set 0.00 sell values for any of my on or off peaks, and given the round trip Powerwall Charge/discharge inefficiencies of powering the house during off peak when our off peaks costs are so very low. So hopefully they do eventually fix that, but maybe it's intentional. Not sure.

Anyway, my workaround (so far) that works well enough for me is that I setup a "mid-peak" for a few hours around the mid-day time frame on my satuday/sunday weekend schedule. The mid-peak is setup with 0.00 sell value. With this setup the system will charge the PWs all morning, and then will continue charging the PW ( more slowly) with solar left over after powering the house through my "trick" mid-day mid-peak period. It doesn't discharge the PW but does charge the PWs more slowly for this short mid-peak period. And after the mid-day peak period ends, it resumes sending all solar to the PW. This works fine for me because I can still easily get to 100% by the end of saturday since it's only a short mid-peak window, and the house doesn't usually use much power at these times on weekends. This repeats on Sunday, but I'm already at 100% so the powering the house first during my short mid-peak period really doesn't matter because it's generally already powering the house from solar since the PW is at 100%.

Tangentially, TLDR (clearly) Now, having said all this, when house loads and PV generation fluctuate near equilibrium (house load nearly equal to PV generation), power walls flows will jump around at times as the systems fights to control and balance flows to align with desired configuation. At these times it will look like it's powering the house or sending power to the grid when this is not desired, and it probably is for a few moments (minutes?). This is normal in any systems I've ever used or seen tested. The way these systems have to ramp up and down voltages and frequencies to control and balance flows in multiple directions (to/from PVs, PW(s), Grid, House) is usually accomplished via some averaging algorithms. And these algorithms are always a compromise between being too direct and then prone to oscillation, or slower to react yet more stable. I feel like the gateway/PW system strikes a reasonable balance. In addition, during these times it seems clear if a particular balancing "oscillation" event causes a "pull" of power from the grid, when it shouldn't, it will in turn for a moment send a balancing load "back" to the grid to balance the unintentional "pull' from the grid.

One more thing I may try this coming weekend is setting up 0.00 buy AND sell values for all off-peak periods during the week and weekend schedules, and then remove my short mid-peak periods (as a test) for the weekend. If it still powers the house after my 9pm peak period ends (as confirmed via the local web interface, not the phone application) from the PW with an 0.0 off-peak buy and sell values set, on Friday night, then I'm guessing Tesla does have a bug that I hope they will eventually recognize and fix even though I know there is nothing we can do to influence that I'm sure. I can't imagine this behavior would be intentional even if they think they know how to do "cost savings" better than us with manual configurations for our particular situations.
Wow, you really have tried a lot of “tricks” to get the Powerwalls to do what you want. I think I have tamed my Powerwalls by entering zero values for buy and sell during Off Peak and Mid Peak, and only entering the actual values for Peak. In my case, this makes the Powerwalls perform like it did with the legacy Cost Savings mode. To answer your question about which days were affected, I am not sure because I didn’t observe the performance every day of the week. But the days I did observe the PWs were doing the same thing each day.
 
Wow, you really have tried a lot of “tricks” to get the Powerwalls to do what you want. I think I have tamed my Powerwalls by entering zero values for buy and sell during Off Peak and Mid Peak, and only entering the actual values for Peak. In my case, this makes the Powerwalls perform like it did with the legacy Cost Savings mode. To answer your question about which days were affected, I am not sure because I didn’t observe the performance every day of the week. But the days I did observe the PWs were doing the same thing each day.

Okay, good to hear you have it working the way you need. The zero buy and/or sell values do seem to be the primary controlling factor that seems to change behavior across the various peak and off-peak types.
 
My system is set to Time of Use and between 2pm-8pm is my peak electricity cost hours. Why isn't the Powerwall charging with the extra solar production when the PWs are only at 64%? The system is having the extra production go to the grid.

Screenshot_20220202-150727_Tesla.jpg
 
My system is set to Time of Use and between 2pm-8pm is my peak electricity cost hours. Why isn't the Powerwall charging with the extra solar production when the PWs are only at 64%? The system is having the extra production go to the grid.
Not enough information but something is odd: you show your production at 3:07 of 3.7 kW. Your systems says it generated 99.7 kWh of power since midnight. Either you have a 40+ kW system and a cloud just happened to have moved over your solar array when you took the screenshot or you have some CTs misplaced.
 
Not enough information but something is odd: you show your production at 3:07 of 3.7 kW. Your systems says it generated 99.7 kWh of power since midnight. Either you have a 40+ kW system and a cloud just happened to have moved over your solar array when you took the screenshot or you have some CTs misplaced.
Great observation, I hadn't noticed that. I sent my installer the screenshot and he said "Probably something being updated on Tesla".

My system is 26 panels, 7.3kw.

These PWs were installed a few days ago and the installer was out today making some last minute adjustments. I know today he had to program the system to double what was bring shown for solar production because it was only showing half of what was actually being produced. Maybe that adjustments messed the numbers up? I also heard that the PWs might need a straight week in Time Based mode to figure out when to charge the batteries and whatnot.
 
Great observation, I hadn't noticed that. I sent my installer the screenshot and he said "Probably something being updated on Tesla".

My system is 26 panels, 7.3kw.

These PWs were installed a few days ago and the installer was out today making some last minute adjustments. I know today he had to program the system to double what was bring shown for solar production because it was only showing half of what was actually being produced. Maybe that adjustments messed the numbers up? I also heard that the PWs might need a straight week in Time Based mode to figure out when to charge the batteries and whatnot.
They do take 2-4 days to learn your patterns before they can figure out how to work effectively in time based mode. But the numbers themselves won't be off by more than 100 Watts or so unless the CTs are installed wrong. And if the CTs are installed wrong, the system can never figure out what to do.
 
We received access to the new settings a couple days ago. working great so far — and fixed the issues we had with the old cost savings mode.

We are in the Houston area and have a free nights plan — and we are only charged for peak use from 6am to 8pm. There is no charge for grid draw during off-peak. Excess generation goes to the grid for $0. Previous cost savings mode would start pulling from the Powerwalls overnight, well before Peak starts And draw down to pretty close to the reserve % setting. Since the new features, there is no Powerwall draw during off-peak. I have reserve set to 79%, and the lowest the Powerwalls get is 86-90%….

Thanks Tesla!

I posted the above in late November. Since other people are saying they are having problems with Time Based Control based on their TOU rates, I figured I'd share how I have ours set up, especially since we have $0.00 buy and sell rates in our plan. Our plan is a "free nights" plan where the retail provider (we're in Texas...) only charges us a fixed fee from the delivery utility and for kWh drawn from the grid during peak. There is no charge for any off-peak use. The plan does not have a sell rate.

This setup has been working perfectly since November -- we only get Powerwall drain during peak hours if solar is not generating enough. During peak, the only grid draw is for load balancing (cost is negligible 1-4 cents per day). Powerwalls also charge up to 100% before we send excess power to the grid during the day. Our last electric bill was <$7 -- with $5 of that being the fixed fee from the grid delivery utility.

Here's our TBC settings for our 16kW system with 4 Powerwalls:
  • Reserve - Typically set to 50% (I sometimes lower this to ~25-30% if we have a few cloudy days in a row and I don't expect storms to knock out power -- but only one of those times have we had enough cloudy days in a row to go well below 50%).
  • Peak 6am to 8pm buy rate is set to $0.19 (our actual rate a couple tenths of a cent below that, but the Tesla app doesn't accept amounts beyond 2 decimals, so I just rounded up)
  • Off-Peak 8pm to 6am, with a buy rate at $0.00
  • Sell rate is set to $0.00 for both Peak and Off-Peak
  • After saving, the app only displays the Peak buy rate -- the ones set to $0.00 don't display.
Since our peak period starts before sunrise and ends after sunset (most of the year...), we typically see the following pattern each day:
  • Off-Peak: Draw from grid (expected behavior).
  • Peak: At 6am, the system switches to drawing from the Powerwalls instead of the grid. After sunrise, the Powerwall use tapers and then charges. Once the Powerwall is 100%, we then export to grid. That cycles in reverse as sunset approaches -- pulling from the Powerwall until 8pm when Off-Peak kicks in and we start to draw from the grid. We typically end the day with the Powerwalls between 85-94% (December was warm, and the AC was running in the evenings and we saw upper 80s% most nights, Jan was cooler and was typically in the low 90s% since the AC wasn't running).
This is exactly the expected behavior and I'm pretty happy.

Interestingly, Tesla enabled Storm Watch yesterday afternoon for the winter storm coming through today. Our Powerwalls had just finished charging to 100%, so we didn't pull from the grid during peak. I went ahead and switched Storm Watch off until after 8pm last night. When I switched it back on, the Powerwalls charged from the grid. Today, I decided to leave storm watch on, so we pulled a bit from the grid. It is cloudy/rainy today, so generation is low, but we are now feeding the grid, with the Powerwalls in standby in case we lose power later today/tomorrow.
 
Glad to hear that the addition of the rates in the app made things work as expected with the Free Nights plan. It has been obvious to me for a while that knowledge of the actual import/export rates was necessary to make the system work the way people expect in all the possible situations.
 
Glad to hear that the addition of the rates in the app made things work as expected with the Free Nights plan. It has been obvious to me for a while that knowledge of the actual import/export rates was necessary to make the system work the way people expect in all the possible situations.
Yes. Before I the rate functionality, the Powerwalls would discharge during off-peak and drain down to very close to the reserve percent. I was hoping for an option to check a box to "minimize Powerwall draw" for each TOU schedule -- but the more I think about it, adding the rates is better. The system can calculate the net benefit and then optimize for lowest cost. In my case, its working well...
 
Unfortunately all of my devices have already auto updated to V4. I didn’t think version V3 and V4 could coexist for the same Powerwalls if both versions were being used on different tablets? Because V3 and V4 have a different Settings, which version would the Powerwalls follow? I guess if you were only using V3 to view data and not change any of the settings that would work.

I decided to try using my utilities predefined rate plan again and waiting a week to see if it ”learns” over the week as Tesla suggests. One problem with the SDG&E EVTOU5 rate plan in the Tesla app is that the seasons are not correct. Because the plan offers a 2PM-4PM Super Off Peak period on weekdays ONLY during March and April, the Tesla app creates 3 seasons. But it really requires 4 seasons to be correct: Winter1 (Nov-Feb), Winter2 (Mar-Apr), Winter3 (May), Summer (June-Oct).
I just switched to the app provided numbers from my own.

Do you know if the sell rate numbers are correct on EVTOU5?

I thought SDGE paid us an average wholesale closer to .10 cents or did I read that wrong on the website?

Without figuring out the true sell number I can’t figure out if this setting is better using the Tesla provided numbers. I’m on Day 2 since switching and Powerwalls are sitting at 99% because of the new sell rate data.
 
This setup has been working perfectly since November -- we only get Powerwall drain during peak hours if solar is not generating enough. During peak, the only grid draw is for load balancing (cost is negligible 1-4 cents per day).
  • Peak 6am to 8pm buy rate is set to $0.19 (our actual rate a couple tenths of a cent below that, but the Tesla app doesn't accept amounts beyond 2 decimals, so I just rounded up)
  • Sell rate is set to $0.00 for both Peak and Off-Peak
  • Peak: That cycles in reverse as sunset approaches -- pulling from the Powerwall until 8pm when Off-Peak kicks in and we start to draw from the grid.
This sounds like what I want for my Peak, so can you confirm with a Buy of $0.19 and Sell of $0.00 that this is causes the following behavior:
  1. Solar goes to house load
  2. Excess solar goes to Powerwall charging and if Powerwall is full goes to grid
  3. When Solar is lower than house load the Powerwall discharges to meet house load until reserve is met
  4. Grid provides power once Powerwall reserve is met
 
This sounds like what I want for my Peak, so can you confirm with a Buy of $0.19 and Sell of $0.00 that this is causes the following behavior:
  1. Solar goes to house load
  2. Excess solar goes to Powerwall charging and if Powerwall is full goes to grid
  3. When Solar is lower than house load the Powerwall discharges to meet house load until reserve is met
  4. Grid provides power once Powerwall reserve is met
IOW, what used to be known as Balance mode
 
I'm still not seeing the result I'd like. This is what I'd like to see:
Off-peak: House is 100% powered by grid. Powerwall charges from solar then excess solar (if any) goes to grid
Peak: Powerwall powers house. All solar goes to grid
After changing the prices as recommended, I'm still seeing some Powerwall usage during off-peak and solar powering the house during peak

Until the latest software updates I had this working beautifully.

6kW solar, 1 Powerwall (Oct 2020). I'm on PG&E in California.

Did you ever find a setting that got your Powerwalls to operate as described above?

Prior to last fall, our Powerwalls did operate in the manner described above, but about 3-4 weeks ago (and after coming out of Storm Watch), our Powerwall operation changed and stopped working like this. Now, during peak time (and even with an SOC of 100%), solar powers the house first and only sends the excess back to the grid. Previously, the Powerwalls used to power the house and all solar was sold back to the grid.