Tesla autopilot HW3

[Mardak]

for some reason shows overlap on the rear looking side cameras... That isn't possible unless they can see around the car, so I call BS on that diagram.

Here's a screenshot from a greentheonly video and notice how both repeaters show the triangle's tip on top of the building. So there is indeed rear overlap from the side cameras.

I'm more curious how they rate the distance on a camera. From the same screenshot, you can see the sun showing up in the camera…

 

[Saghost]

I'm more curious how they rate the distance on a camera. From the same screenshot, you can see the sun showing up in the camera…

I'm assuming it must be some sort of "distance at which the car can recognize cars in the image" - but I have no idea how many pixels per car that is.

 

[Pale_Rider]

NN need only surprisingly low res images to work, it’s not the same as human vision...

 

[mongo]

View attachment 472235
Here's a screenshot from a greentheonly video and notice how both repeaters show the triangle's tip on top of the building. So there is indeed rear overlap from the side cameras.

I'm more curious how they rate the distance on a camera. From the same screenshot, you can see the sun showing up in the camera…

Which model is that? If you check out the video in my link, the lane line disappears from sight showing divergent angles. In your photo, the top of the building is when the body curves in which allows convergent lines of sight. Note where the rear fender is in relation to the the peak.

NN need only surprisingly low res images to work, it’s not the same as human vision...

I can drive without glasses (can't tell you the street name though)

 

[MaryAnning3]

The trial was way back in the April timeframe.

With respect, i think you need more time to get to know how to use it. There are subtleties.

 

[emmz0r]

I'm assuming it must be some sort of "distance at which the car can recognize cars in the image" - but I have no idea how many pixels per car that is.

It creates a 3D model of the world and places the car in that and then transforms to world coordinates from pixel coordinates. It's all constructed with multiple frames to see how the objects change. 1 pixel = certain real world width / height. You have the radar too with depth measurement

 

[Beprimeau]

What I’ve noticed is that the v10 update did improve a lot of the autopilot image functionality with better lane lines and traffic images. A few things I have also noticed:

1) there is significant lag when an image (car/truck/motorcycle) goes from one camera field to another (e.g. moving slowly next to the vehicle). It flickers one then the other position and dances a little bit (not as bad as prior to v10).

2) EVERY time I have been using Autopilot and it starts to rain hard, all the functionality of Autopilot goes away with a warning the lane departure is inactive and canceling the Autosteer. This is a serious and significant downfall of camera based navigation that doesn’t happen with radar or lidar. I really don’t see any future in solving this problem with just image cameras unless there some additional imaging technologies.

People drive with almost 100% visual-only input (some sound, vibration), so how can you say that the Tesla will need radar or lidar? People don't need radar to drive in rain, snow, fog, etc.

 

[Saghost]

People drive with almost 100% visual-only input (some sound, vibration), so how can you say that the Tesla will need radar or lidar? People don't need radar to drive in rain, snow, fog, etc.

People get in a lot of accidents in rain, snow, fog, etc.

I'm hoping the car will be smarter than human drivers in terms of driving into conditions where you can't see enough.

 

[WarpedOne]

Lidar gets blinded by rain and snow even more than you do.

 

[Az_Rael]

People drive with almost 100% visual-only input (some sound, vibration), so how can you say that the Tesla will need radar or lidar? People don't need radar to drive in rain, snow, fog, etc.

I hear this argument a lot, and I wonder if folks know how hard a problem that is to solve. If Tesla actually does solve the computer vision AI to match the capabilities of a human brain it will have broader implications across society. They will no longer need to be a car company and can sell the solution across many industries. We could then have robot surgeons, factory workers wouldn’t be needed, etc. It would really be a sea change.

 

[WarpedOne]

If Tesla actually does solve the computer vision AI to match the capabilities of a human brain it will have broader implications across society.

Yes and no... the solution or more "how to come up with a solution" may be somewhat transferable to other domains but still this is no general problem solving, it is still narrow AI.

 

[bwwcmh]

My confidence in AP grew substantially within the first few weeks we owned our Model 3. I (it drove over 25 miles on I-75, at night, in a downpour, during which it only lost the lane markers once. Now this stretch of I-75 is newly repaved with bright lane paint and reflective markers, but I swear there were times when I had trouble seeing the lanes myself (e.g., when passing trucks that were spraying mist everywhere) and the car stayed true. That said, I've since had several occasions where AP lost track of lane markers that I thought were perfectly visible in dry conditions. So seeing stories of wildly different behaviors in different conditions is not surprising. Lots of amazing things achieved; still a lot of work to be done.

 

[EVNow]

but I swear there were times when I had trouble seeing the lanes myself (e.g., when passing trucks that were spraying mist everywhere) and the car stayed true.

For anyone who wears glasses, in rain at night - AP is a big boon. Even with all the anti-reflective coating etc that we can have on glasses.

 

[eli_]

Apparently in the 2019.36.1 build, the traffic cone visualization only shows up on HW3 cars, may be the first software feature that diverges on the new platform.

 

[dgatwood]

I actually feel like we're in a pretty dangerous period right now - the car is amazingly good at handling anything that normally happens, good enough it's easy to trust the car completely and get distracted. But it isn't yet smart enough to recognize when something exceptional happens with road debris or deer or potholes - either to deal with it or to alert a distracted driver.

Eh. It still can't handle half of Bay Area highway ramps without a 1-in-3 chance of suddenly steering straight off the road, and it still has a decent chance of merging badly. It is nowhere near a point where I would trust it completely....

 

[dgatwood]

I’ve never had rain disable autopilot. NoA yes, but not autopilot. I live in Houston and recently had to drive around during a tropical storm... And while radar can see through rain fine, it can’t see lanes or read signs. Lidar really struggles in rain, snow, fog... It would shut down long before vision based solutions...

I did. Once. I was driving CA-17 in heavy rain, and a truck in the oncoming direction hit a big puddle, and visibility went to zero for about five seconds.

 

[ahkahn]

I scheduled for other service and did put on my request to upgrade my car to AP3. They said that I would have to come into the service center for the other service, and they "think" they may be able to hit the AP3 upgrade at the same time. I'm going in the end of the month... we will see.

So an update. I took my car in. The service writer first tried to tell me that my car was NOT eligible for an AP3 upgrade because it was AP2, and not AP2.5, to which I asked them exactly why did I pay for the FSD package upgrade? He kept standing his ground, and after going back and forth with him and telling him that he is flat wrong, he finally went to the service manager who also acted bewildered about it. Lead tech confirmed that he *thought* the upgrade would cover AP2 vehicles, but that they're not doing it yet. He said to try back some time next year. Service writer basically had a "see I told you so" attitude and tried to tell me that whatever I've read on the Internet is wrong about upgrading AP2. Between this experience, plus the fact that their yellow screen fix tool was "broken" and to schedule another visit in a month or two, I am pretty upset with Tesla. Their service department used to be straight up first class, and now it's worse than the Ford service dept that I take my wife's car to.

 

[Saghost]

So an update. I took my car in. The service writer first tried to tell me that my car was NOT eligible for an AP3 upgrade because it was AP2, and not AP2.5, to which I asked them exactly why did I pay for the FSD package upgrade? He kept standing his ground, and after going back and forth with him and telling him that he is flat wrong, he finally went to the service manager who also acted bewildered about it. Lead tech confirmed that he *thought* the upgrade would cover AP2 vehicles, but that they're not doing it yet. He said to try back some time next year. Service writer basically had a "see I told you so" attitude and tried to tell me that whatever I've read on the Internet is wrong about upgrading AP2. Between this experience, plus the fact that their yellow screen fix tool was "broken" and to schedule another visit in a month or two, I am pretty upset with Tesla. Their service department used to be straight up first class, and now it's worse than the Ford service dept that I take my wife's car to.

We believe that the only difference between AP2.5 and AP3 is the computer, whereas we know that the AP2.5 update changed all of the cameras and the radar.

So upgrading an AP2.5 car to AP3 is probably just a matter of replacing the computer, but an AP2 upgrade is likely more involved (it's not clear to me whether they'll have to replace the cameras and radars in AP2 cars, or just adjust the networks to deal with differences in output.)

That doesn't in any way relieve Tesla of their obligation to upgrade you, but it may explain why they can't yet; the service people certainly didn't help the situation with their poor explanation.

 

[drtimhill]

People get in a lot of accidents in rain, snow, fog, etc.

I'm hoping the car will be smarter than human drivers in terms of driving into conditions where you can't see enough.

Yes but most of those human accidents are caused by inattention or outright mistakes, not by lack of visual acuity. And those are the very characteristics that an automated system should excel at (computers don’t get tired, or take eyes off road to read a text). So at some point we will have a situation where FSD will work far better than humans, but very occasionally go totally haywire and do something absurd like drive off a cliff.

 

[Saghost]

Yes but most of those human accidents are caused by inattention or outright mistakes, not by lack of visual acuity. And those are the very characteristics that an automated system should excel at (computers don’t get tired, or take eyes off road to read a text). So at some point we will have a situation where FSD will work far better than humans, but very occasionally go totally haywire and do something absurd like drive off a cliff.

I guess that depends on what you include in the mistake category. There are lots of cases of folks driving into conditions where they can't see enough ahead for the speed they are driving, and then being unable to stop due to the short distance when they do see things and compromised traction.