Tesla batteries designed last to 10 years

[henderrj]

In this video Jeff Dahn says that Tesla batteries are expected to last 10 years and he hopes to get them to 20. Interesting.

Tesla battery research partner working on longevity breakthrough says work is going into the company’s products

 

[Cosmacelf]

It will be interesting to see what residual value Tesla gives for a 10 year old traded in battery pack. In theory, they will be building a battery recycling system at the gigafactory to break the packs into constituent parts and recycle the metals.

 

[jsmay311]

It will be interesting to see what residual value Tesla gives for a 10 year old traded in battery pack. In theory, they will be building a battery recycling system at the gigafactory to break the packs into constituent parts and recycle the metals.

There's no guarantee it will ever be economical to recycle li-ion batteries for their raw materials. (Here's a decent article that discusses the difficulties involved: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714000037)

Regardless, it would make little sense -- economically or environmentally -- to recycle EV cells after 10 or even 20 years when they still have some usable capacity remaining and could be redeployed as grid storage. But eventually they'll have to be disposed of in one way or another. Hopefully recycling proves viable.

 

[Canuck]

Regardless, it would make little sense -- economically or environmentally -- to recycle EV cells after 10 or even 20 years when they still have some usable capacity remaining and could be redeployed as grid storage.

How long can they be used for grid storage?

 

[Cosmacelf]

There are lots of problems with reusing used battery packs as grid storage. First, you have to repackage the modules into a weather proof enclosure. Right there you've thrown the economics out the window since these packs were not made to be disassembled easily.

 

[Moonwick]

I'd be surprised if you'd need to do any disassembly to make a car's pack into something that could be racked into a cabinet that would provide shelter from the elements. Of course, this assumes that the grid storage scenario can make use of the pack in its existing 96s configuration.

 

[Gizmotoy]

There are lots of problems with reusing used battery packs as grid storage. First, you have to repackage the modules into a weather proof enclosure. Right there you've thrown the economics out the window since these packs were not made to be disassembled easily.

Seems like you could just create an enclosure with multiple shelves. Stack 10 or more of them vertically into a big unit? Clearly each stack has a big footprint, then, but it seems like there'd be some applications that would allow it.

I'd me more concerned about battery chemistry, though. The commercial and industrial cells in Tesla Energy's products use a different chemistry, right? I'm not sure how well the automotive chemistry would adapt to grid use.

 

[jsmay311]

I'd me more concerned about battery chemistry, though. The commercial and industrial cells in Tesla Energy's products use a different chemistry, right? I'm not sure how well the automotive chemistry would adapt to grid use.

It depends on the exact application. Lithium battery grid storage project parameters vary greatly, with discharge ratings being anywhere from 0.1C to 4C, with the majority being below 0.5C.

List of energy storage projects - Wikipedia

Automotive batteries should easily be able to handle those <0.5C projects, especially if they limit the SOC window more than in their EV application -- which they very likely would to increase longevity.

(If a utility is looking to shave peak demand for just a short amount of time on the highest demand hours of the year, they might want an installation with relatively small energy capacity but with a high power rating that discharges all of its usable energy in less than an hour.

But if a utility wants to shift demand, like they'll have to do more and more as solar becomes a larger part of the energy mix, then they'll want larger-capacity installations that discharge over a number of hours. These types of projects are the ones likely to dominate in the future.)

Here's a decent (if dated) piece on the different chemistries Tesla was considering using in different storage applications: Tesla will use different batteries for its grid products. Here's why

 

[roblab]

There are lots of problems with reusing used battery packs as grid storage. First, you have to repackage the modules into a weather proof enclosure. Right there you've thrown the economics out the window since these packs were not made to be disassembled easily.

It would be easy to put them under a roof or in a building.

 

[Cosmacelf]

It would be easy to put them under a roof or in a building.

Utilities don't have empty buildings just lying around...

 

[davewill]

It would be easy to put them under a roof or in a building.

Plus, I would think you'd want some control over the climate, and if you leave in the in-car package, you'd have to hook up the liquid cooling to something.

 

[alloverx]

Plus do folks know exactly the chemistry of their batteries?.
If Tesla (or anyone) tweak their secret sauce (without eventually publicizing) that may impact recycling options/values:

 

[Nietschy]

Plus, I would think you'd want some control over the climate, and if you leave in the in-car package, you'd have to hook up the liquid cooling to something.

have you ever heard about the powerwall or powerpack?
I guess not, because that is what it is you all are talking about in a nutshell.

 

[scaesare]

It depends on the exact application. Lithium battery grid storage project parameters vary greatly, with discharge ratings being anywhere from 0.1C to 4C, with the majority being below 0.5C.

List of energy storage projects - Wikipedia

Automotive batteries should easily be able to handle those <0.5C projects, especially if they limit the SOC window more than in their EV application -- which they very likely would to increase longevity.

(If a utility is looking to shave peak demand for just a short amount of time on the highest demand hours of the year, they might want an installation with relatively small energy capacity but with a high power rating that discharges all of its usable energy in less than an hour.

But if a utility wants to shift demand, like they'll have to do more and more as solar becomes a larger part of the energy mix, then they'll want larger-capacity installations that discharge over a number of hours. These types of projects are the ones likely to dominate in the future.)

Here's a decent (if dated) piece on the different chemistries Tesla was considering using in different storage applications: Tesla will use different batteries for its grid products. Here's why

In addition, the different applications have different depth-of-discharge and cycle-life requirements. Chemistries optimized for daily deep cycling as might be needed for peak shaving might be optimized for cycle-lives much greater than other applications.

 

[Az_Rael]

I wonder how much it will cost to replace a Tesla battery if it fails at 10 years (2 years past the warranty).

Lots of folks drive cars that long (I currently have an 11 year old truck), so I hope the 3rd party battery replacement market is in full swing by then.

 

[scaesare]

There's no guarantee it will ever be economical to recycle li-ion batteries for their raw materials. (Here's a decent article that discusses the difficulties involved: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714000037)

Regardless, it would make little sense -- economically or environmentally -- to recycle EV cells after 10 or even 20 years when they still have some usable capacity remaining and could be redeployed as grid storage. But eventually they'll have to be disposed of in one way or another. Hopefully recycling proves viable.

That's an interesting article. It seems that many of the issues they identify have to do with the variability of pack sizes, chemistry types, additional materials within a pack (BMS components, etc...) and the like. It appears that eliminating many those variables make it more feasible, and that the original battery manufacturer also being the recycler is perhaps the best option:

Several factors could help promote Li-ion battery recycling. For example, the large, recognizable packs will be removed from end-of-life vehicles if there is an economic incentive or a regulatory imperative to do so. They will be labeled to enable identification for proper routing. The recovered batteries could be returned to the original manufacturers (in Europe this may be a requirement [16]), which could enable subsequent recycling. However, while these manufacturers would know what the batteries are composed of, they might not want to be in the recycling business, and they would be required to process recycled compounds that could be obsolete 10 years or more after initial production.

Fortunately, Tesla does exactly that now, and has even larger recycling plans with the gigafactory.

 

[azred]

Articles like this are not very comforting for those of us who tend to buy and hold our cars for ten years or more. It would be helpful to know that replacement batteries will be available.

 

[scaesare]

Articles like this are not very comforting for those of us who tend to buy and hold our cars for ten years or more. It would be helpful to know that replacement batteries will be available.

There will be. And they'll be cheaper and/or more capable than what's available today.

 

[gaswalla]

Yes. Imagine in ten years you can renew your car with more power and range. Will actually be an advantage over ICE

 

[Az_Rael]

There will be. And they'll be cheaper and/or more capable than what's available today.

Do you think the Gigafactory will enable that just due to sheer production capacity? Because right now Tesla seems to have zero interest in offering upgrades for classic cars. And if they ever change the battery form factor making it incompatible with the older cars, then I would say the chances of being able to upgrade a battery on a 10 or more year old car from Tesla go to zero.

Maybe 3rd parties will pick up the market.