Tesla battery recycling program?

[Gloor]

Hello guys,

do you have more info you could share about this, please? I've recently had slightly heated discussion about the "ADAC" report where the counter part was saying its actually more environmentally friendly to use ICE car due to the fact that the production of batteries and the minerals it needs is extremely demanding and heavy for the environment.
I've read that Tesla wants to have a closed loop system which would mean that existing batteries will be recycled for new and no new materials/minerals will need to be mined?
Are there any supporting studies etc. which I could read up on, please?

How does one "battle" this argument or what else could you guys share that would help me educate myself (and others) better, please?

 

[Darmie]

Must keep in mind that most uninformed continue to think, if there is something good going on, there must be something bad happening behind the scenes. It take a huge shift of thought to consider this sustainable transportation could ever exist. ICE cars had the same issue with their 12V battery years and years ago. What promoted the recycling program was to incentify the return of an old battery.
Also note, these articles about electric bad, ICE good comes from may that are disrupted by sustainable transportation and how Tesla sells cars direct.

Tesla has been recycling batteries for many years.

Tesla launches battery recycling at Nevada Gigafactory

 

[JulienW]

Batteries are also becoming SO LONG life that many will likely be "recycled" into Power Wall type products in the next decade or so. This will give them another 10 to 20 years of operational use. So many batteries that are being produced today won't need to be recycled for 25 years or so.

 

[5170304]

The studies that say that batteries cause more environmental harm than ICE typically use some flawed assumptions as the starting point of the study. For instance the study that said that a M3 used more CO2 then a diesel Mercedes used the assumption that the battery would only last for 93,000 miles (150,000 KM). We know that while some batteries will develop a problem and need to be replaced just like some engines develop problems early in their life span, most will last much longer than 93,000 miles. It also assumed that they would be hazardous waste at that point when in reality they will be recycled or more likely reused in an energy storage project. That study also used flawed/old data on the energy required to manufacture a battery. Neither did it take into account that Tesla's Gigafactory is largely run from renewable energy. With any study of this type you can simply google the study title or news story title about the study and you will likely find a rebuttal of the study somewhere in the first 20 results.

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

I suspect it's going to be a while before Tesla needs to get into battery recycling. It's hard to gauge, but I would say the average mileage on a car in the US before its either totaled or junked is in the ballpark of 100K miles. It's super unlikely its above 150, and surely not 200. No doubt you can find examples with 500K+, but for every one of those theres dozens of cars totaled with barely any miles on them. Right now, it's quite likely M3 packs will last that long before they have enough degradation to warrant a replacement. So really the main concern isn't going to be the few failures that get warranty replacements, it's what to do at end of life. And right now its hard to say where that will go. There's quite strong support for reuse of Tesla packs right now, and presumably for some time to come. That's massively better for the environment than trying to reprocess the cells. And outside of the car, the pack can very easily have a long life even with considerable degradation since the stresses of stationary storage are way less than an EV. You don't need to charge anywhere near 100kW, or discharge more than 10kW or so. If it only holds 60% of what it did when it was new, its not really a big deal. So long as it can stay balanced it should be OK for quite a while as is. So by that estimation, it may be 20+ years before this is a serious concern. And I suspect everyone hopes they have a better idea what to do by then.

And one thing to note, sustainability is certainly not always better for the environment. I don't think at this time Tesla is really trying to push environmental responsibility.

 

[JulienW]

....and 1,000,000 mile cells are coming soon to a Tesla near you. These will be good for probably an extra 30 years or more as backup power packs after their car life is over.

 

[GHammer]

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/defaul...ner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf

and an update:
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

 

[Gloor]

Thank you guys,

I'm really curious (and hopeful), that Tesla will indeed do closed loop recycle system as that would basically move the whole market to electrification. The environmental impact from the mining and creating batteries seem to be super crazy so I hope this gets solved otherwise we are not making the problem better. People are calling for Hydrogen cars but I don't see it. Can you?
Any more info about this Tesla recycling and closed loop? Would be great to get some more data etc.

 

[ezevphl]

I think the real question you have to ask is how will those batteries get back to Tesla? Its not like Tesla is buying all the old cars that are in accidents. It would only get the batteries that have problems and are replaced under warranty.
My former Model 3 was totalled... The battery was in perfect shape, but I do not expect tesla to monitor local salvage auctions

 

[Gloor]

I think the real question you have to ask is how will those batteries get back to Tesla? Its not like Tesla is buying all the old cars that are in accidents. It would only get the batteries that have problems and are replaced under warranty.
My former Model 3 was totalled... The battery was in perfect shape, but I do not expect tesla to monitor local salvage auctions

You didn't ask for the batter back? Because if it was fine that thing should have a great value

 

[doghousePVD]

I suspect it's going to be a while before Tesla needs to get into battery recycling. It's hard to gauge, but I would say the average mileage on a car in the US before its either totaled or junked is in the ballpark of 100K miles. It's super unlikely its above 150, and surely not 200. No doubt you can find examples with 500K+, but for every one of those theres dozens of cars totaled with barely any miles on them. Right now, it's quite likely M3 packs will last that long before they have enough degradation to warrant a replacement. So really the main concern isn't going to be the few failures that get warranty replacements, it's what to do at end of life. And right now its hard to say where that will go. There's quite strong support for reuse of Tesla packs right now, and presumably for some time to come. That's massively better for the environment than trying to reprocess the cells. And outside of the car, the pack can very easily have a long life even with considerable degradation since the stresses of stationary storage are way less than an EV. You don't need to charge anywhere near 100kW, or discharge more than 10kW or so. If it only holds 60% of what it did when it was new, its not really a big deal. So long as it can stay balanced it should be OK for quite a while as is. So by that estimation, it may be 20+ years before this is a serious concern. And I suspect everyone hopes they have a better idea what to do by then.

And one thing to note, sustainability is certainly not always better for the environment. I don't think at this time Tesla is really trying to push environmental responsibility.

Cars built recently typically have mileage over 200,000 (and last about 20 years) before junking, unless in an accident. Cars from the '60s and '70s crapped out much sooner.

There is going to be a huge post-auto market for used batteries in stationary markets, especially with sophisticated buyers. Tesla itself will need several hundred kWh to multi mWh for each stall in a Supercharger to make best use of solar, off-peak rates, and minimizing demand charges. Assuming a useful capacity of 50% of new, that could mean 10 to 20 used battery packs each. Since Tesla has 12,000 stalls now, they would like to have maybe 250,000 battery packs.

"Sophisticated buyers" because there will be a high failure rate with used batteries, and they would have to be monitored and swapped around a lot. It definitely would NOT work for litigious consumers who buy one and expect it to work flawlessly for a decade.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I think the real question you have to ask is how will those batteries get back to Tesla? Its not like Tesla is buying all the old cars that are in accidents. It would only get the batteries that have problems and are replaced under warranty.
My former Model 3 was totalled... The battery was in perfect shape, but I do not expect tesla to monitor local salvage auctions

Don't worry, your battery was sold to someone who I'm sure is using it for something.
Complete Model 3 battery packs go for $11.5k on eBay. Individual modules go for $3k (there are 3 per LR pack).

 

[joebruin77]

Here is a great video that thoroughly addresses this false argument that ICE cars are better for the environment:

 

[Jazz_MIII]

This was posted by Tesla in 2011, can only imagine this has gotten worlds better since!

Tesla's Closed Loop Battery Recycling Program

 

[ezevphl]

You didn't ask for the batter back? Because if it was fine that thing should have a great value

Its a great value.. but they do need to recover some of their $ in salvage costs. Not exactly like the floor mats that I took out of the car..

 

[SlimJim]

If the government and EPA decided that EV batteries are more threat than CO2 produced by ICE, they will ban EV or fine Tesla and tax EV owners.
Until then, I will keep saving money on fuel.

 

[Dan203]

To be fair if you live in a state where most of the power is produced by coal, like West Virginia, then charging a Tesla is actually worse then burning gas. But there are only like 3 states I think where that’s true. And if you throw a few solar panels on your house while you’re at it you'll offset that difference.

 

[ezevphl]

To be fair if you live in a state where most of the power is produced by coal, like West Virginia, then charging a Tesla is actually worse then burning gas. But there are only like 3 states I think where that’s true. And if you throw a few solar panels on your house while you’re at it you'll offset that difference.

Even that is not actually true and hasn't been for years.
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner
By 2016 an EV was cleaner in the worst parts of the country and that is improving very quickly.

Today its even cleaner than that, but as of a few years ago you can see that in the worst zip codes you still do much better in a Model 3 than any comparable ICE.
How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?

 

[TimothyHW3]

Let me guess, the OP is from Germany? You can't win an argument there, they are too brain washed. But wait a year or two and see how that will change as soon as VW bring their own car in mass production. Wait for the paid articles suggesting ICE cars are worse...

 

[doghousePVD]

Let me guess, the OP is from Germany? You can't win an argument there, they are too brain washed. But wait a year or two and see how that will change as soon as VW bring their own car in mass production. Wait for the paid articles suggesting ICE cars are worse...

Why the [wrong] stereotypes?

1) Germans are not more brainwashed than, say, New Yorkers.

2) His post says he is from Canada.


How about a little more graciousness on these fora.