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Tesla battery swap: Post announcement discussion

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They need to build one to test market the concept. It may prove to be a poor idea, but they need to find out. I would personally recommend they do the first one somewhere between LA and Vegas. Seems like that would be a route where people would be in a hurry.
 
At the Crissy Field Supercharger Event I detected a distinct back pedaling regarding battery swapping. I got the impression Tesla will focus on reducing the charge time by continuing to increase the power of the Supercharging stations. The general statement was why would you pay (e.g. $60) for a five minute swap when you could have a free 20 minute charge. All the Superchargers are up to 120 kW and I believe Europe is already at 135 kW.

It's still a throughput problem either way. There've been many times where I've gotten to California SCs where all the bays are in use (more common for the 4-6 charging bay SCs) and people are waiting 1+ hours to get a turn to charge. As more & more cars get on the road there will be more & more congestion at the SCs, this is another way to relieve congestion, since 2 minute battery swaps can process 10x more cars than a 20 minute single bay charge session. Some people will always pay the opportunity cost of $X to skip waiting Y minutes / hours of waiting...
 
It's still a throughput problem either way. There've been many times where I've gotten to California SCs where all the bays are in use (more common for the 4-6 charging bay SCs) and people are waiting 1+ hours to get a turn to charge. As more & more cars get on the road there will be more & more congestion at the SCs, this is another way to relieve congestion, since 2 minute battery swaps can process 10x more cars than a 20 minute single bay charge session. Some people will always pay the opportunity cost of $X to skip waiting Y minutes / hours of waiting...

Rignt.
- Increase charging speed
- Add Superchargers and bays
- Add Superswappers
That order.
If you think of a swapper as a Superdupercharger, part of the Supercharger network, the prepayment builds it and the per-use fee just need to help cover running cost. Lower running cost, get more custom. I think that the mechanical ongoing costs per use should be pretty low, but the real cost challenge is that Tesla envisages a rental model, so need to store your battery for you to pick up on the way home. Storage means space. Underground bunkers?
 
It's still a throughput problem either way. There've been many times where I've gotten to California SCs where all the bays are in use (more common for the 4-6 charging bay SCs) and people are waiting 1+ hours to get a turn to charge. As more & more cars get on the road there will be more & more congestion at the SCs, this is another way to relieve congestion, since 2 minute battery swaps can process 10x more cars than a 20 minute single bay charge session. Some people will always pay the opportunity cost of $X to skip waiting Y minutes / hours of waiting...

My guess is Tesla figured out they could add a lot of charging bays for the cost of a single swapping station. In particular you probably have to provide a full time employee and lots of expensive batteries and a place to store them with quick access. The charging bays have no moving parts and provide a lot of redundancy as you add more more bays. If the swapping machine breaks it will probably be much harder to fix and is a single point of failure.
 
At the Crissy Field Supercharger Event I detected a distinct back pedaling regarding battery swapping. I got the impression Tesla will focus on reducing the charge time by continuing to increase the power of the Supercharging stations. The general statement was why would you pay (e.g. $60) for a five minute swap when you could have a free 20 minute charge. All the Superchargers are up to 120 kW and I believe Europe is already at 135 kW.

It's still a throughput problem either way. There've been many times where I've gotten to California SCs where all the bays are in use (more common for the 4-6 charging bay SCs) and people are waiting 1+ hours to get a turn to charge. As more & more cars get on the road there will be more & more congestion at the SCs, this is another way to relieve congestion, since 2 minute battery swaps can process 10x more cars than a 20 minute single bay charge session. Some people will always pay the opportunity cost of $X to skip waiting Y minutes / hours of waiting...

Agreed. It is all about how congested Supercharger stations are likely to be. If Tesla is successful in producing hundreds of thousands of cars per year the question will become can they install Supercharger stations fast enough to deal with an order of magnitude increase in cars on the road. Or will they find that even though it's more expensive, logistically they can get more through put by supplementing Superchargers with Swapping stations while creating a new revenue stream to pay for the expansion. It makes sense to test this in California where the congestion will occur first.

I doubt that a modest 10% increase in Supercharging capacity will have a measurable effect in abating the need for supplemental Swapping if Tesla is producing hundreds of thousands of cars per year. If you have a dozen cars waiting in front of you, most Tesla owners would not hesitate to pay the price to jump the line because you won't be waiting a mere 20 minutes, you may be waiting hours.

The difference in Tesla's communication is that from the beginning Elon was committed to aggressively pursuing the Supercharger network. In the case of the Swapping stations, they have stated that they will first test the concept before initiating a widespreed roll-out. Therefore, its not back pedaling, its merely realistically managing expectations because they have not yet committed to a Swapping network.

Larry

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My guess is Tesla figured out they could add a lot of charging bays for the cost of a single swapping station. In particular you probably have to provide a full time employee and lots of expensive batteries and a place to store them with quick access. The charging bays have no moving parts and provide a lot of redundancy as you add more more bays. If the swapping machine breaks it will probably be much harder to fix and is a single point of failure.

You make an excellent point. However, the logistics and coordination of multiple Supercharging stations is significant. It may turnout that despite the increase in costs the more compact and smaller footprint of a Swapping station makes rapid expansion more feasible. Realistically Tesla wouldn't be placing them at all Supercharger locations, but rather only at those locations that are chronically congested.

Larry
 
Rignt.
- Increase charging speed
- Add Superchargers and bays
- Add Superswappers
That order.
If you think of a swapper as a Superdupercharger, part of the Supercharger network, the prepayment builds it and the per-use fee just need to help cover running cost. Lower running cost, get more custom. I think that the mechanical ongoing costs per use should be pretty low, but the real cost challenge is that Tesla envisages a rental model, so need to store your battery for you to pick up on the way home. Storage means space. Underground bunkers?

You left off one: Increase battery pack capacity. And I'd put that above Superswappers in your list.

Supercharging is a relatively simple and elegant solution. They're already increasing speed, adding chargers, and will be adding more bays.

Battery swapping is clunky and complicated to implement and comes with a whole host of problems, as you all just mentioned. While I'm glad they did the swap demo awhile back, I think its best purpose was to appease EV-naysayers. In reality, I just don't see battery swaps as a viable solution to congestion.

As range increases over the next 5-10 years, and we see 400 or even 500 mile capacity packs, that will ease load on the superchargers. For LA->SF, for example, that would mean just one SC stop, if at all, instead of two or three!

Consider, too, since the SCs really only charge at full speed for the bottom ~70% of capacity, that means instead of 150 miles of range in 20 minutes (and 240 miles in ~90+ minutes), they could actually charge 300+ miles of range in just 40 minutes. That would also ease congestion considerably.
 
The difference in Tesla's communication is that from the beginning Elon was committed to aggressively pursuing the Supercharger network. In the case of the Swapping stations, they have stated that they will first test the concept before initiating a widespreed roll-out. Therefore, its not back pedaling, its merely realistically managing expectations because they have not yet committed to a Swapping network.

Agreed. I still think they will set up one or two swapping stations in California, but I would bet they're also still working to improve charge times. In the end, charging stations have to be much less costly/complex than swapping stations.
 
Reprint from article on the following website: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/21/the-tesla-battery-swap-is-the-hoax-of-the-year/#more-99699

The Tesla battery swap is the hoax of the year

Posted on December 21, 2013 by Guest Blogger
What California says about zero-emission vehicles, and why Tesla is committing fraud
Image via CrunchBase

Guest essay by Alberto Zaragoza Comendador
I didn’t create this essay because I dislike electric vehicles. While I’m skeptical of their potential, I have nothing against EVs per se.
Sure, electric cars enjoy a laundry list of incentives. I totally disagree with these policies, but a bajillion people have already pointed out why electric car subsidies are dumb. I cannot add much value there, and EV advocates will argue they’re doing nothing illegal anyway.
The fundamental reason this blog exists is to tell the world about the fraud Tesla is committing. This has resulted in tens of millions dollars’ worth of fraudulent carbon credits being received by the company, and if nothing is done the tally will get into the hundreds of millions. This blog exists not to tell people about EV incentives, but about the illegal incentives a particular EV company is getting. I covered much of the same ground in my first post, but here I’ll give California’s own regulations as sources.
You don’t have to take my word for it.
Click here and go to slide 13. It shows how many Zero Emission Vehicle credits a car gets. ZEVs are divided into seven categories:
· Type 0: less than 50 miles, 1 credit
· Type I: 50-75 miles, 2 credits
· Type I.5: 75-100 miles, 2.5 credits
· Type II: 100-200 miles, 3 credits
· Type III: 200+ miles, 4 credits. (Also: 100+ miles with fast refuelling).
· Type IV: 200+ miles with fast refuelling, 5 credits
· Type V: 300+ miles with fast refuelling, 7 credits
This system is regulated by the California Air Resources Board. And by “fast refuelling” they mean refuelling to 95% of capacity within 10 minutes (Type III) or 15 minutes (Types IV and V). This is impossible for batteries, so it could only be done with hydrogen. Indeed, you’ll hear complaints that the regulations are designed to favor hydrogen over batteries. Well, tell California.
English: Tesla Model S Prototype at the 2009 Frankfurt Motor Show (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

The Model S is clearly a Type III vehicle: it gets between 200 and 300 miles, but even in the fastest Superchargers it needs about one hour to reach 95% of battery capacity. Tesla itself quotes 75 minutes for 100% charging. So it gets 4 credits per car…or at least it should. Let’s go back to 2012.
As of June 15, the 85KWh version (called S3 here) was considered a Type III vehicle. But by October 12 it had morphed into a Type V. So the upgrade happened at some point between these two dates. Presumably, the 60KWh version was also upgraded in the same time frame. Here is a December 20 confirmation that both versions had been upgraded, showing how the 60KWh model went from Type III to Type IV. And here is an restatement in April 2013 of basically the same things, but including the cancelled 40KWh version. (CARB doesn’t seem very well organized).
In any case, production of the Model S only ramped up in the last quarter of 2012, so the vast majority of them qualified under the new classification. The real question is, why the upgrade?
Because of the battery swap. If the car can exchange batteries in 90 seconds, then it’s totally crushing the 15-minute requirement established by the California Air Resources Board. Notice that, even in this case, the 85KWh version still doesn’t meet the range requirement to be a Type V vehicle, as it’s rated by the EPA at 265 miles. So it would be stuck at 5 credits. It seems CARB bent the rules a little, or perhaps they concluded that the superb refuelling time “offset” a deficiency in range. In any case it’s no reason for alarm.
What is a reason for alarm is that CARB gave Tesla these extra credits before any battery swap station had been built. In fact, it happened about nine months before the feature was publicly demonstrated (June 2013). I’ve emailed CARB officials and Tesla twice, to find out more about this issue. Did Tesla demo the battery swap to CARB officials? If so, when and where? Did Tesla bring its own car, or does CARB have one for testing purposes? Did CARB officials check and drive the car before, during and after the swap?
They haven’t answered.
By May, the battery swap was becoming a problem: CARB openly discussed removing it from the fast refuelling category. Perhaps other carmakers were complaining to CARB that Tesla was getting credits for a feature nobody could use. In any case, the agency deferred a decision to October.
In June, after weeks of teasing, Tesla demonstrated the 90-second, fully automated battery swap in public. It was their biggest event this year. Or ever: I can’t remember any other Tesla event with such a level of media coverage.
And guess what, the company brought its own cars and didn’t let anybody near them. The official video doesn’t even show what’s happening under the car.
By August, Tesla forum users were openly calling the feature a stunt. You see, some Model S owners have already put their battery warranties to use, and the battery change takes three or four hours, and a few workers. It’s impossible to automate it, let alone to do so in 90 seconds. This somehow went unnoticed for the Internet.
The company itself hasn’t made a statement about the swap feature for several months. And looking at their SEC filings, there is exactly one reference to this swapping thing.
our capability to rapidly swap out the Model S battery pack and the development of specialized public facilities to perform such swapping, which do not currently exist;
I won’t give you a link, because the exact same sentence has been appearing in every earnings report for a couple years. No estimates of how much the swap stations could cost, or when they could open, or what areas they could serve, or any meaningful information.
The writing was in the wall all this time. Tesla never intended to build the “specialized public facilities to perform such swapping”.
October came, CARB met, and the same issue came up: does a battery swap qualify as fast refuelling? See slide 12:
Some [battery electric vehicles] have been qualifying under the fast refueling definition by means of battery exchange. However, it has not been publically demonstrated that battery exchanges have occurred on the vehicles earning credits. Though staff does recognize the potential for a battery exchange to help market the vehicle, other vehicles earning Type IV and V ZEV credit depend on fast refueling for vehicle operation and success. Staff is proposing to remove battery exchange from qualifying under the fast refueling definition, starting in 2015 model year.
Translation: we know Tesla is a scammer, but we don’t want them to go bankrupt so we’ll let them milk the battery swap cow for another couple years.
As it happens, starting in 2018 all ZEV credits will be awarded on range alone, not on refuelling time (see slide 66). This means the battery swap will no longer give Tesla any extra credits. So if CARB actually takes action in 2015, Tesla could only exploit this loophole for two or three years, out of five in total. Maybe the scam could stop before reaching $200 million. Phew! Good to see those regulators doing their job.
Tesla has reported sales of the 85KWh version at 70-90% of the total. Remember this version was upgraded from four ZEV credits to seven, and the other version from four to five. If that’s the case, then 35-40% of all ZEV credits they earn in California come because of the battery swap. Only Tesla knows how much they’ve made off these credits, but over the last four quarters their ZEV revenue has been $170M. Do the math.
And that doesn’t include figures for the current quarter. Or credits they have earned but haven’t sold yet. If you check the document I just linked to, but in slide 68, you’ll see that all credits can be “banked” (stockpiled) without penalty. Presumably, this could only change starting in 2018 when the ZEV program will revamped. So even if the market is weak one quarter, they can make it up the next.
Here you can see the transfers of ZEV credits among carmakers. It seems Tesla has sold 1,311.52 “credits” from October 2012 to September 2013, which is precisely the period we’re interested in, and they still have 276.080 left. But this is a different measure of credits (grams per mile of non-methane organic gases, and I don’t understand it either). To arrive at the ZEV number, you have to divide them by the number that appears at the bottom of the website, which for this period is 0.035. So Tesla has sold 37,472 credits, and they still have 7,888 in balance. This suggests their total ZEV credits earned for the period were 45,360, so they’ve sold 82% and kept the rest.
Note: this is not an audit. There is surely something I’m missing – credits transferred among states, carried over from previous periods, etc. So this is only an approximation. I suspect their credit generation in California was greater (it has provided 40-50% of their car sales), but they transferred those credits to other states. Also: the number of ZEV credits “generated” by other electric cars cannot be reliably calculated, because the big carmakers sell a lot of low-emission vehicles and they can also generate ZEV credits with those.
Still, we’re probably looking at $150 million in sales of California credits over this period, of which $60 million correspond to the battery swap. Including credits they haven’t sold yet, the respective figures grow by $30 and $12 million.
The bottom line is that ZEV credits are a key source of “revenue” for Tesla. Pure profit, in fact. And they will remain so for the foreseeable future.
And this has serious implications for entire ZEV program. Tesla “produced” about 45,000 ZEV credits in the state from October 12 to September 13. (For calendar 2013, the figure would be higher). Of this amount, about 18,000 (40%) were fraudulent. The only other electric car selling in decent amounts is the Nissan Leaf, but it only gets three credits per car and sells less than the Tesla. Everybody else is a rounding error, and the system as a whole probably produced less than 60,000 credits.
So if 40% of the credits Tesla gets are fraudulent, that’s 30% of the entire California market. In fact, it’s probably more than 20% of the entire US market. And that’s assuming the rest of the system is clean.
In short, the ZEV mandate is a joke.
So here we are, fifteen months after Tesla started getting carbon credits for the battery swap. The company has already cashed out, probably for more than $60 million. Without building a single swap station, or demonstrating the feature in consumer cars, or bothering to provide any sort of explanation.
I have emailed them, written on their Facebook page, posted in their forum. Their only “reaction” was to kinda make the battery swap disappear from their website. It’s impossible to get an actual response from the company.
Tesla intends to shut up its way out of this mess.
The question is, how could a scam so brazen go unnoticed for so long? I think other carmakers probably don’t want to get into trouble with California officials. So they’ve been lobbying to put an end to the special treatment Tesla gets, but they haven’t publicly denounced the situation or filed a lawsuit.
And for industry outsiders, well, the idea that the whole battery swap thing could be a fake is just surreal. How could Tesla sink that low?
The Tesla battery swap is the hoax of the year.
 
I'd love to shame Tesla into putting the swap into service, but there's been no clamoring among owners for swap.

I've checked this Forum and TM Forum and other than a few characters claiming that swap is "impossible" there hasn't been much interest.

That being said, I'd love to be wrong.
 
I suppose it depends on how the California regulatory agency defines "capable". If it means "technically possible", then it's been done. If it means commercially available, then that's different. There's also a clause about having the fast recharge requirement waived.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevregs/1962.1_Clean.pdf
(B) Fast Refueling. The “fast refueling capability” requirement for a
2009 through 2017 model year Type III, IV, or V ZEV in subdivision 1962(d)(5)(A) will
be considered met if the Type III ZEV has the capability to accumulate at least 95 miles
of UDDS range in 10 minutes or less and the Type IV or V ZEV has the capability to
accumulate at least 190 or 285 miles, respectively, in 15 minutes or less. For ZEVs that
utilize more than one ZEV fuel, such as plug-in fuel cell vehicles, the Executive Officer
may choose to waive these subdivision 1962.1(d)(5)(B) fast refueling requirements and
base the amount of credit earned on UDDS ZEV range, as specified in subdivision
1962.1(d)(5)(A).


The article is a sham in various ways, like raising the specter that it wasn't a real demonstration and that battery swaps can't technically be done quickly when Better Place already showed it was possible a long time ago.
 
I suppose it depends on how the California regulatory agency defines "capable". If it means "technically possible", then it's been done. If it means commercially available, then that's different. There's also a clause about having the fast recharge requirement waived.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevregs/1962.1_Clean.pdf

The article is a sham in various ways, like raising the specter that it wasn't a real demonstration and that battery swaps can't technically be done quickly when Better Place already showed it was possible a long time ago.

Great catch. Agree that the article is wrong on many fronts.

Having attended the swap event, he is wrong on the facts too. You could see the nut runners and packs move off. Could not see the coolant system de-coupling.

It's pretty clear that the vehicle was designed swap capable. I'd wager that if/when swap happens, you'll have to get "swap ready" at a Service Center.
 
The article is a joke. It takes three to four hours to remove and replace the battery if whoever is doing the job is drunk, passes out for 3.5 hours, and wakes up just in time to do it in 4 hours. The only scam I see, is the writer of this article.
 
The article is a joke. It takes three to four hours to remove and replace the battery if whoever is doing the job is drunk, passes out for 3.5 hours, and wakes up just in time to do it in 4 hours. The only scam I see, is the writer of this article.

Someone who is very sloppy with research may confuse the time to remove the Roadster battery for the time to remove the Model S battery.
Before publishing a diatribe about it, you would think they would make the effort to not be so misinformed.
 
Wattsupwiththat is a well-engineered climate denial blog. They are basically a deception mill, with the purpose of manufacturing lies about climate science to those willing to be lied to.

It's no surprise to see them attack Tesla. Pretty much everything green = bad, fossil fuels = good in their books.