Tesla belatedly tries to make their connector a North American standard

[Olle]

...Yes, but like I wrote, if you don't have ground and neutral separated, your are not allowed to connect in anywhere else than the service panel, which excludes generator inlets.


I think so too, maybe. At least there is a lot of noise about V2X.

I just realized, instead of having the center tap sourced from the car, you could include a center tap emulator in the V2X version of the NACS inlet. Would add some cost, but not nearly as much as a whole inverter.

That would solve all of the questions and concerns listed above and the system could work like a regular solar storage system with transfer switch, e.g. Powerwall. Thoughts?

Not to state the obvious, but if all you need is V2G, you could of course use plain 240 without neutral, like the newer generations of Enphase inverters. V2House for blackout is probably the bigger value so just V2G is not that great.

 

[israndy]

OK, re-read all the V2X posts, I *think* I get what you guys are saying.

How does the Hyundai V2L adapter (that provides a 120v NEMA 5-15 outlet) work? Is it connected directly to the battery on the high power pins of the CCS connector, or does it use the J1772 and have the same issues with pulling AC from the car's then bi-directional charger w/o a neutral?

Searching for V2X J1772 on the googles I only see one match for Diamond where they spec their own 7.2kW bi-directional charger but they don't show a pinout, potentially they use a separate output.

 

[Lloyd]

It's definitely an attempt to grab govt subsidies. A skill Tesla is quite adept at. Agree with the others that they should have done this years ago. They said they were going to but the licensing agreements said otherwise. Unfortunately the horse has already left the barn. I don't see large manufacturers moving to TPS.

Unless they can convince other manufacturers to buy into the Tesla Supercharger network. That may be why now!!

 

[MP3Mike]

How does the Hyundai V2L adapter (that provides a 120v NEMA 5-15 outlet) work? Is it connected directly to the battery on the high power pins of the CCS connector, or does it use the J1772 and have the same issues with pulling AC from the car's then bi-directional charger w/o a neutral?

From what I saw it just uses the J1772 port, but it only supplies 120v, so it is supplying a "neutral". This picture shows the adapter does not use the CCS portion:

The problem is trying to provide split-phase 240v from the J1772/NACS connector. There just aren't enough pins.

And I don't know that Hyundai uses a bi-directional charger, or if they have a separate inverter. (Some of their vehicles have a 120v outlet on the inside you can use as well.)

 

[Olle]

From what I saw it just uses the J1772 port, but it only supplies 120v, so it is supplying a "neutral". This picture shows the adapter does not use the CCS portion:
View attachment 874476

The problem is trying to provide split-phase 240v from the J1772/NACS connector. There just aren't enough pins.

And I don't know that Hyundai uses a bi-directional charger, or if they have a separate inverter. (Some of their vehicles have a 120v outlet on the inside you can use as well.)

Both the fact that the power comes out of the J1772 and the large amount of power, 3600W, makes me suspect that this is a real bi-directional converter.
A separate 3600 W inverter would be a big chunk of extra cost and weight to throw in, let alone wiring it up to the charge port, necessitating a special adapter. But I could be wrong, would be interesting to find out what it is.

How does the Hyundai V2L adapter (that provides a 120v NEMA 5-15 outlet) work? Is it connected directly to the battery on the high power pins of the CCS connector, or does it use the J1772 and have the same issues with pulling AC from the car's then bi-directional charger w/o a neutral?

Like MP3Mike wrote it's only a problem with split phase. Since household 120v is regular single phase, only one power pin is needed for phase and the other power pin is used as neutral.

 

[voxel]

For that case people were saying the connector would have a huge arcing hazard. Splitting the battery doesn't solve this, because at the connector end it'll still be 10000V.

You can see the examples of both Tesla and the MCS cables in the other posts I gave. It looks fine to me. The picture you chose was of a beefier example. It's the equivalent to FloMAX diesel nozzles used by some of the larger industrial equipment, so not going to be unusual to those users either:

FloMAX Diesel Fuel Nozzle | Dixon

They also demoed other versions that seem fairly easy to use (not a whole lot different than a consumer gasoline or diesel nozzle):

Liquid cooling allows thinner cables (versus a conventional uncooled cable required to handle the same current), so I don't see what's "nutty" about it.

That only gives you 400kW each, not the up to 3.75MW that the MCS connector would support. You would need to connect 9 of your suggested cables to support the same power. I think a slightly larger cable like MCS supports would be preferred by most truck drivers than having to plug multiple cables.

They probably are used to heavier nozzles and cables than regular car drivers, given the high flow diesel pumps (even the ones at truck stations, not the industrial version mentioned earlier) use bigger nozzles and cables.

I'd be curious about long-term reliability of these MW cooling system even if they are industrial grade products. EA chargers have known issues with active cable cooling failing and now you have cooling at the car inlet and the charger shoulder (at least that's what I vaguely remember from the video). Pushing 3000A through these cables is no joke.

I thought the Tesla connector was limited to 500V because of the physical separation of the DC pins. What changed with the 1000V version? (Sorry didn't read all messages in this thread)

 

[Cosmacelf]

I'd be curious about long-term reliability of these MW cooling system even if they are industrial grade products. EA chargers have known issues with active cable cooling failing and now you have cooling at the car inlet and the charger shoulder (at least that's what I vaguely remember from the video). Pushing 3000A through these cables is no joke.

I thought the Tesla connector was limited to 500V because of the physical separation of the DC pins. What changed with the 1000V version? (Sorry didn't read all messages in this thread)

There is a bigger physical barrier on the 1000V version, but the pin spacing looks the same. This might have also been done to prevent 500V cables to plug into a 1000V vehicle, unless the vehicle could handle it.

 

[bradtem]

The problem is trying to provide split-phase 240v from the J1772/NACS connector. There just aren't enough pins.

Well, you say there are not enough pins, but as you know in level 1 charging config, J1772 puts live and neutral on the main pins, as opposed to the two opposite phase live lines of level 2. So I don't see why it would violate anything for an adapter of this sort to use those pins for this purpose in reverse. Be nice if it gave 20a or even 30a frankly. If you used all the pins of CCS you could even provide two hots and a neutral out that connector -- naturally with lots of protection to assure this never happens when a charging plug is inserted.

Some people would like to get out both phases when trying to power a home and certain high power appliances like air conditioners. I think it would be not a great idea to power dryers or ovens or pool pumps or hot tubs. Almost everybody would survive without those in a power outage.

For most consumers, who don't have frequent outages, I see a home where every device drawing significant power can be remotely switched on and off via smart home protocols. That's actually very easy and cheap to do today with 120v devices, and could be cheap for plugged-in 240v devices (dryer, stove.) Hard-wired 240v devices (AC, pool pump, hot tub) either need to be rewired (not that hard) or be more modern devices that allow remote control (most modern AC and pool pumps do that.)

Then, when there is an outage and you want to switch over to power from the car, you turn off everything by default except some lights on dim power so you can see if it's night, and the homeowner, if home, turns on what they need.

In fact, I think this is also the right config if you get yourself a home battery. The Tesla powerwall is very expensive. Most people would do fine with a small 1kWh unit (4MJ). During the day, this would allow the house to run on solar. As the sun goes down, you go to minimal mode, just what you need, and if it's a lot, plug into the car, though in many cases the 1kWh might well run your internet and fridge all night, a few LED lights and perhaps TV/computer. Maybe you need 2kWh. You don't need a $10,000 home battery unless you have frequent long outages, or you are doing power arbitrage. Because your car is not plugged in a lot of the time, it's only for unusual situations, so you don't want to pay a ton for that.

 

[drtimhill]

I wonder, why now? If they were going to do this, why not five years ago?

Opening the North American Charging Standard | Tesla

www.tesla.com

There are a LOT of Tesla’s out there .. if I was making a DC fast charger for profit, I’d want to support Tesla connectors I think. If enough makers do this, the Tesla connector becomes a de-facto standard regardless of SAE etc.

 

[MP3Mike]

Well, you say there are not enough pins, but as you know in level 1 charging config, J1772 puts live and neutral on the main pins, as opposed to the two opposite phase live lines of level 2.

Huh? J1772 has three main pins: L1, L2/N, and Ground. You either put in/get 120v with a neutral, or you put in/get 240v with just the two hots and no neutral. (i.e. an incomplete split-phase that can't be used to power a whole house.)

 

[bradtem]

Huh? J1772 has three main pins: L1, L2/N, and Ground. You either put in/get 120v with a neutral, or you put in/get 240v with just the two hots and no neutral. (i.e. an incomplete split-phase that can't be used to power a whole house.)

Whoops, I now see you were saying you can't get 240 with neutral, which is of course correct. I thought you were objecting to the 120v hot/neutral coming out of this adapter. My error.

 

[SVMike]

Wrong. You can tell by looking at the outlet in almost all cases. (Assuming that they have been installed to code.)

If you look at this

you can't tell if the combination of the ones on the left have a max of 15 or 20 amps. You'd have to look at the breaker controlling it to know.
As for being simple, we have lots of choices

And of course plugs can be polarized and you can get adapters to skip the 3rd prong

I am going to name the above adapter the Combined Cable System (CCS) since it allows you to plug in cables that are either two or three prongs.

But wait, there's more

With this adapter I can plug in a 20 amp cable/device into a 15 or 20 amp outlet and there is no software inside to prevent this.

 

[MP3Mike]

If you look at this

you can't tell if the combination of the ones on the left have a max of 15 or 20 amps. You'd have to look at the breaker controlling it to know.
As for being simple, we have lots of choices

It doesn't matter if the ones on the left are on a 20 amp breaker, they can still only be used for 15A, which you can tell by looking at them.

Who said anything about simple?

 

[SVMike]

It doesn't matter if the ones on the left are on a 20 amp breaker, they can still only be used for 15A, which you can tell by looking at them.

Who said anything about simple?

Um, but there are two outlets that "can" accept 15a each (which would trip a 15a breaker or a 20a breaker)
But if you had two 9a devices and plugged them in a 15a breaker would trip for sure, but not a 20a breaker.
You can't tell by "looking" if it is OK to do so.

I don't really have a point to make except that the multitude of standards for common electrical devices we are all used to is fairly complex even compared to the mess of EV charging options. And I didn't even talk about all the USB charging variants (mini, micro, type C) and the other DC low voltage plugs for laptops, 6v, 9v, 12v etc barrel plugs, etc.

 

[bradtem]

Um, but there are two outlets that "can" accept 15a each (which would trip a 15a breaker or a 20a breaker)
But if you had two 9a devices and plugged them in a 15a breaker would trip for sure, but not a 20a breaker.
You can't tell by "looking" if it is OK to do so.

I don't really have a point to make except that the multitude of standards for common electrical devices we are all used to is fairly complex even compared to the mess of EV charging options. And I didn't even talk about all the USB charging variants (mini, micro, type C) and the other DC low voltage plugs for laptops, 6v, 9v, 12v etc barrel plugs, etc.

Actually, generally 5-15 sockets are capable of 20a (if on 12AWG and a 20a breaker.) It's rare to make one that can't do that, though also pretty easy to swap if you are paranoid.

 

[pp61]

There are a LOT of Tesla’s out there .. if I was making a DC fast charger for profit, I’d want to support Tesla connectors I think. If enough makers do this, the Tesla connector becomes a de-facto standard regardless of SAE etc.

A few years ago in Europe the Tesla CCS adapter was not available yet. The provider Fastnet had at every charger a Tesla Chademo adapter (secured with metal chain) to attract Tesla cars to charge. This can be done by commercial US chargers too, with the available CCS adapter.

 

[bradtem]

A few years ago in Europe the Tesla CCS adapter was not available yet. The provider Fastnet had at every charger a Tesla Chademo adapter (secured with metal chain) to attract Tesla cars to charge. This can be done by commercial US chargers too, with the available CCS adapter.

Yup, EVgo did this for a while, but then they integrated a Tesla connector and cord right into their stations, as people prefer that. (They may have internally used a Tesla adapter back then, who knows? Now that the connector is open source they can build their own I presume.)

I do think you will see Tesla cords start appearing on some of the CCS stations. It's easier than pulling out the adapter, and you can duplicate the SC experience, or close to it, if you do a good app, or you can talk the Tesla auth protocol. I think Teslas are supposed to support plug and charge too, but I don't know the details on that. Of course you need to set up an account, Tesla has the advantage of the account being set up already for you.

 

[henderrj]

If Tesla is making money with its superchargers, that is to say a profit on every charge session, would they not also make a profit by selling charging sessions to non Tesla vehicles? In other words making the supercharger Network a profit center external to their own vehicle production. It would seem that that could be a pretty big incentive in the next 5 to 10 years. If it's true that all the other manufacturers step up their game and make four to five times as many EVS as Tesla is (at that time), that's four to five times as much profit for Tesla in their supercharger Network.

So, government money and a legitimate profit. Can't be all bad!

Just a thought.

 

[Olle]

If Tesla is making money with its superchargers, that is to say a profit on every charge session, would they not also make a profit by selling charging sessions to non Tesla vehicles?

Yes, that is exactly what Tesla is doing.

Speaking of which, if Tesla is selling supercharging to non Teslas, everybody's prices will start to converge. Here is where it gets interesting, because as you may have noticed, it is not only the other networks' charge connectors that are clunky and sub par (and costly looking per stall) compared to Tesla's, it's the stations themselves. How are they going to compete? I'm betting it's going to be tough.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Yes, that is exactly what Tesla is doing.
View attachment 874805
Speaking of which, if Tesla is selling supercharging to non Teslas, everybody's prices will start to converge. Here is where it gets interesting, because as you may have noticed, it is not only the other networks' charge connectors that are clunky and sub par (and costly looking per stall) compared to Tesla's, it's the stations themselves. How are they going to compete? I'm betting it's going to be tough.
View attachment 874802

The reason competing stations are so big and clunky is that they often have the AC to DC conversion in the same cabinet, whereas Tesla separates that out into a separate cabinet. Also, their cords are longer to accommodate different types of EVs, and they must have screens and card readers. Pretty sure the industry is rueing the lack of plug and charge from the get go, credit card reader maintenance must be a nightmare.