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Tesla BEV Competition Developments

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by uselesslogin, May 25, 2014.

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  1. RobStark

    RobStark Well-Known Member

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  2. RobStark

    RobStark Well-Known Member

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    #2462 RobStark, May 4, 2019
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
    Mexican Model X?

    [​IMG]

    LM&TH Vehículos eléctricos


    LM & TH Automóviles' Thalia $18,500

    200 km range
    80 km top speed

    They are also making a commercial van version for intra-city small business delivery.
     
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  3. ZsoZso

    ZsoZso Active Member

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    Was that mustache grill really necessary ???
     
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  4. RobStark

    RobStark Well-Known Member

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    Of course not but then you wouldn't get the Karma dreamers too. :p
     
  5. EVMeister

    EVMeister Lover of Tesla, driver of I-PACE

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. SwTslaGrl

    SwTslaGrl Member

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  7. RobStark

    RobStark Well-Known Member

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    Envision AESC battery cell capacity for Nissan LEAF

    [​IMG]

    Excess capacity for North America and not enough capacity for Europe.

    Seems about right for China and Japan/Asia/Oceania.
     
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  8. SwTslaGrl

    SwTslaGrl Member

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  9. guidooo

    guidooo Member

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    Seems Chinese made MG getting ready for European market:

    Twitter
     
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  10. Doggydogworld

    Doggydogworld Member

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    They should race these against Enhanced Summons, lol.

    Trucks could be a bigger near-term market than Robotaxis. The economics are pretty overwhelming.
     
  11. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    The ride sharing companies are pushing hard for autonomous cars because paying drivers is their #1 expense. If they got rid of drivers, their profit margins would probably go off the peg.

    Autonomous trucking probably is a better test market. The conditions on long highway routes are much easier for an autonomous vehicle that navigating in an urban environment, and trucking companies could increase their profit margin with autonomous trucks before regulators approve full autonomous vehicles with no drivers. They could lobby that drivers could spend more time on the road each day because they aren't having to drive, just watch and they might get it approved. Driver-less vehicles on highways might be approved before they are on city streets because of the fewer edge conditions. Trucks could make the long stretches between cities on their own and pick up a driver at a stop on the edge of a city.
     
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  12. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Not exactly competition anymore, but an interesting look at the first gen of modern EVs:
     
  13. ZsoZso

    ZsoZso Active Member

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    Electric Cars: Why Toyota Will Be the Envy of the World

    Some select quotes:
    I think with that design even more things disappear, such as:
    • safety -- look at that frontal crumple zone, all half inch of it
    • aerodynamics -- what is the drag coefficient for a brick ?
    • aesthetics -- at least nobody will steal that monstrosity from you...
    • luggage space -- sure, its ultra-compact, so no passengers for you, but no space for even a grocery bag ?


    Oh, my Jesus... Another magic battery that will surely change the world. I think its called like that because you better be a believer with True Faith and don't ask too many critical questions or look for any practical proof.
     
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  14. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    I think Toyota is the last major automaker to start on the EV path. They've been making hybrids for a long time, but not EVs. They pumped billions into hydrogen cars, but it looks like they might be abandoning that when a hydrogen station in Norway blew up last week. They have suspended fuel cell car sales in Norway and the fueling network was shut down. It might come back online, but Toyota may be seeing the handwriting on the wall.

    Toyota has the advantage of being among the largest automakers, but their sales have been declining for several years.
     
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  15. mongo

    mongo Well-Known Member

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    Wat?
    Not sure what else they are eliminating, but electrolyte is less than 2% of mass per http://www.ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2014/11/109509.pdf

    SmartSelect_20190616-080901_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
     
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  16. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Toyota has been presenting ultra-compact EV concepts for years, stuck in the mindset that BEVs are only good as tiny urban commuter cars.
     
  17. SwTslaGrl

    SwTslaGrl Member

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    This is a nice overview: EV Database
    Tesla is at the top in most categories.
     
  18. RobStark

    RobStark Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-6-16_14-55-11.png

    Toyota car sales 2019 | Statista
     
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  19. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    With dry electrode, solid state batteries, there is less concern about fire if the batteries are crushed, so there is less need tor some kind of container to reduce the crush risk. For cells like Panasonic, that means the walls of the cylindrical batteries can be made thinner. For pouch cells that means the container for the pouches doesn't need to be as robust.

    Solid state batteries also promise to be much more energy dense than li-ion cells, which means fewer can be used for a high capacity pack. If the energy density is 2X, you only need 1/2 the cells to get a 100 KWH pack which saves a lot of weight.

    BTW, that article posted is terrible click bait. It reads like an email scam. This site is a good clearing house for new tech in the EV industry:
    Charged EVs | Electric Vehicles Magazine

    I suspect the people who run it have experience with trade journals in the engineering industry. A lot of their articles read like engineering trade journal pieces.

    This is the most recent article on solid state batteries and Toyota:
    Charged EVs | Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Panasonic partner to develop solid-state batteries

    It's a year old and just talks about how Toyota has teamed up with other auto makers and Panasonic to develop solid state batteries. There is nothing on Toyota putting anything into production.

    This is the most recent Toyota article:
    Charged EVs | Toyota accelerates its electrification plans, teases six new EVs

    Just a mention prismatic cells are in development and Toyota is just one of the partners in the project. If the Japanese are first to produce solid state batteries, it won't just be Toyota who has them, all the other companies in the consortium would introduce solid state battery packs around the same time.

    There is an arms race going on to develop solid state batteries. Pretty much everyone who has anything to do with batteries is putting money and effort into it. I see no indication that the Japanese are ahead. Everyone is secretive about where they are, so we won't know who wins until somebody trots out a working prototype that can be mass produced. My money would either be on the Chinese, who have almost unlimited funds to throw at the problem, or Tesla who is the most nimble player in the race.

    OK, my bad, but not growing much. Just did a quick Google search, the article I thought of was actually about Prius sales, which are declining. But their hybrid sales in total are about the same because they have made hybrid versions of many of their regular cars.
     
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  20. Saghost

    Saghost Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the links. Solid state batteries are certainly one of the two or three most promising directions battery research is going right now.

    I don't think EVs are the first place you'll see them, though. With higher margins, lower life requirements, and more need for the durability and temperature tolerance, cell phones and other personal electronics will likely get the solid state batteries a year or two before cars do. They can probably also take early batches where the quality/yield is more of an issue more easily.
     
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