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Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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Initial volumes probably will be limited, and allocating them for high end cell phones and other portable devices is a better bang for the buck. You can make a lot of iPhones or a few cars.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
Solid electrolyte, aka solid state, enables a lithium metal anode which saves a lot of weight. Today's solid state (or semi-solid state) cells can achieve 400+ Wh/kg, but suffer from low power density and low cycle life.
Tesla does a lot of their own battery research, but Elon has said they are open to outside ideas too. I think most of the chemistry advancements during the last 7 years of production have come mostly from internal projects, though there has been a lot of buzz about the latest advancement coming later this year coming from something they picked up in the Maxwell buy out last year. That sort of makes it internal since Maxwell is now part of Tesla.
Mader Levap
Member
As far I know, dry electrode tech has nothing to do with solid state batteries.
The term "solid state" means no liquids (or gasses) in the device. It originated in the amplified electronics world when transistors were replacing tubes. All tubes had a glass envelope around the elements which was normally a vacuum (though inert gasses were used for a few) and in the case of tubes, the lack of a gas was necessary for them to work correctly. If the seal cracked and air leaked in, they quit working.
Hard to imagine today, but all the electronics of the WW II era required vacuum tubes. Radios in planes often quit working from the tubes coming loose or cracking when the plane was hit. Radios used by infantry were gigantic and fragile too.
Silicon based transistors made vacuum tubes obsolete as fast as they could be integrated into new electronics. Transistors do the same sort of job as tubes, but it does them in a very different way so the electronics around the device needs to be completely redesigned as well as the packaging.
I went to a technical high school with a major in electronics and we had a short course in tubes in the early 1980s. They were obsolete then, but there were still some equipment out there that used them. We had to keep the ancient oscilloscopes in our lab (some had literally been rescued from a dumpster) going and got hands on experience with tubes in a real world environment there.
Solid state batteries will work essentially the same way as li-ion with possibly different charging needs, so the electronics with solid state batteries probably won't change anywhere near as the change from tubes to transistors.
Tesla will probably not offer any kind of battery upgrade for older cars, but an aftermarket shop might offer a replacement pack with solid state batteries. Upgrade your old 2013 85 to a 150 KWH pack...
Hard to imagine today, but all the electronics of the WW II era required vacuum tubes. Radios in planes often quit working from the tubes coming loose or cracking when the plane was hit. Radios used by infantry were gigantic and fragile too.
Silicon based transistors made vacuum tubes obsolete as fast as they could be integrated into new electronics. Transistors do the same sort of job as tubes, but it does them in a very different way so the electronics around the device needs to be completely redesigned as well as the packaging.
I went to a technical high school with a major in electronics and we had a short course in tubes in the early 1980s. They were obsolete then, but there were still some equipment out there that used them. We had to keep the ancient oscilloscopes in our lab (some had literally been rescued from a dumpster) going and got hands on experience with tubes in a real world environment there.
Solid state batteries will work essentially the same way as li-ion with possibly different charging needs, so the electronics with solid state batteries probably won't change anywhere near as the change from tubes to transistors.
Tesla will probably not offer any kind of battery upgrade for older cars, but an aftermarket shop might offer a replacement pack with solid state batteries. Upgrade your old 2013 85 to a 150 KWH pack...
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Mader is correct. "Dry Electrode" is the technology that Maxwell developed for depositing electrode materials on the current collectors. It replaces the solvent previously used, but even with the old solvent based coating once they were baked there was no liquid left behind. Solid state batteries could be made with the wet solvent process because the solvent is removed. What makes a cell "solid state" is the replacement of the liquid electrolyte with a solid or polymer. The way the electrode is coated has nothing to do with it.
That's the way I understood it too, but I wasn't sure how the electrodes were made so I just clarified the broad definition of the term. Tesla and other battery makers probably would like to get away from the wet solvent because that is a step in li-ion battery production that takes a lot of time. Battery factories need curing ovens to allow the solvent to fully set before assembling the cell. That both adds time to the process and takes up space.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Time, space, energy, and costs. Solvent is highly toxic and must be recovered. Removing it's use would be a huge boon for cell manufacturing.
I was kicking around the efficiency of EVs on the market now. There has been talk of the new European rivals to Tesla have large battery packs, but poor range. I did some calculations on efficiency on every EV I could find and calculated based on Wh/Mi (and Wh/Km) as well as taking the efficiency with the weight taken into account. Per pound (or kilo) Tesla is way ahead of the competition. I didn't add in Tesla Performance models, but among the non-Performance cars the only one that gets over 0.06 WH/Mi/Lb is the Model 3 SR+. Everyone else is above 0.064.
I used the EPA ranges (even the Km numbers) because they are closest to real world numbers. I calculated the Mercedes EQC from the WLTP range. According to InsideEVs the WLTP range is 1.121 times more than the EPA range with very little variability. I highlighted currently available Teslas in yellow and the European 200+ mile competition in gray.
I used the EPA ranges (even the Km numbers) because they are closest to real world numbers. I calculated the Mercedes EQC from the WLTP range. According to InsideEVs the WLTP range is 1.121 times more than the EPA range with very little variability. I highlighted currently available Teslas in yellow and the European 200+ mile competition in gray.
Rivian is actually in pre-production.
Rivian R1T Electric Pickup Truck Now In Partial Production
I believe their vehicle is actually going to happen. Their truck will probably ship before Tesla's.
Toyota has given up and is simply paying BYD to put Toyota badges on BYD electric cars.
BYD and Toyota join forces to develop electric cars and batteries | The Driven
Rivian R1T Electric Pickup Truck Now In Partial Production
I believe their vehicle is actually going to happen. Their truck will probably ship before Tesla's.
Toyota has given up and is simply paying BYD to put Toyota badges on BYD electric cars.
BYD and Toyota join forces to develop electric cars and batteries | The Driven
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Directed at Ford, not you:
Train car wheels have a rolling coefficient of friction of 0.001-0.002 so one million pounds is a rolling force of 1,000 - 2,000 pounds, a fraction of the weight of the truck itself. The rest of the force needed is just accelerating the mass.
This guy pulled over a half million pounds of train with his teeth:
Heaviest train pulled by teeth
Tesla has done the same sort of thing:
The Quantas X pull Tesla SUV earns a Guinness World Record for towing massive airplane was a quarter million pounds. However, the tire coefficient is higher, so if the c was > 0.004 - 0.008, the X pull required more force.
(also, train pull impressiveness varies based on the slack between cars and slack in the pull strap. Jerking the first car to roll which then jerks the second and so on is much easier than if the train is has no slack).
RobStark
Well-Known Member
The point isn't that Ford is breaking new ground, they ain't
The point is they are preparing F-150 buyers psychologically for an electric F Series.
In the same way they promoted "military grade aluminum" before they launched the all aluminum F-150.
To preempt the charge they are selling a sissified F-150.
skitown
Member
Why do you suppose Ford - a self-described "big, tough macho, American truck company, who makes work trucks aimed at hardworking dudes" used an Asian female for the driver / representative in this ad? It seems very out of character and contrived to me. They almost always just use the stereotypical white male in their truck ads. What message are they sending here? I don't remember them doing anything like this with their "military grade aluminum" campaign. Honestly, I think they are trying to sissify it with this message. Or at least cause some mental confusion.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
1) Because Linda Zhang is the F150 Chief Engineer. Do you think they should replace the actual Chief Engineer with a white male actor to fit the narrative you think should be presented?
2) In the typical F Series buyers group is an Indian guy with an accent, who is definitely not a European-American. Or a Bubba with pickup.
3) I honestly don't think they are trying to sissify it. I think you are seeing ghost where none exist.
skitown
Member
I scrubbed through it once it started reminding me of the cheesy Chevy commercials these days bragging about their awards; and with contrived commentary, so I had no idea she was the F150 Chief Engineer. That's cool. Regardless, I don't recall Ford trotting out their engineers to talk about "Military Grade Aluminum", but maybe they did for the initial reveal. I do strongly remember macho Idiocracy-like voice-overs boasting about how tough it is. Upon Googling - actually it was an obnoxious Denis Leary - with super-quick cuts and geared to testosterone. Just a totally different vibe. I would guess Ford knows their target, but I'm not on Madison Ave.
Ford F-150 TV Commercial, 'Military Grade'
Believe me, I hope you are 100% right.
Ford F-150 TV Commercial, 'Military Grade'
Believe me, I hope you are 100% right.
I think it's a good thing, they have the chief engineer of the project out there demonstrating how good her new truck design is. She just happens to be Asian and female.
When she walks on screen and introduces herself to the guys it says on screen "Linda Zhang F-150 Chief Engineer"
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