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Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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Doggydogworld
Active Member
Yes, I'd like to see more of these. Model 3 won with 270 miles, but the much less expensive Kia Niro was an impressive second with 255. The Reddit thread has some tables comparing to WLTP and EPA. WLTP is more optimistic, as we all know, but the "spread" was tighter than EPA. The Kia and Audi actually exceeded their EPA range while the Tesla fell short by 16%.
bhtooefr
Active Member
Heat pumps help a lot with range in cool weather...
I have reason to believe that the Model 3 is the only car in that test without heat pump heating (it's optional on the Kia and Nissan). (I haven't had a chance to actually watch the whole test.)
(The problem, of course, with using a heat pump is that you make the battery cooling system significantly more complex as far as valving goes, if you need to do things like heat the pack and refrigerate the cabin, or refrigerate the pack and heat the cabin. The BMW i3 actually gets around that complexity... by using two compressors, which is obviously a terrible (and inefficient) solution. A lot of other cars get around that by aircooling or *cough*Nissan*cough* not cooling the pack at all, which is even more terrible.)
I have reason to believe that the Model 3 is the only car in that test without heat pump heating (it's optional on the Kia and Nissan). (I haven't had a chance to actually watch the whole test.)
(The problem, of course, with using a heat pump is that you make the battery cooling system significantly more complex as far as valving goes, if you need to do things like heat the pack and refrigerate the cabin, or refrigerate the pack and heat the cabin. The BMW i3 actually gets around that complexity... by using two compressors, which is obviously a terrible (and inefficient) solution. A lot of other cars get around that by aircooling or *cough*Nissan*cough* not cooling the pack at all, which is even more terrible.)
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
As far as I remember they didn't state the exact SOC on each vehicle...but noted that some had lost as much as 5% before the test began. It's entirely possible that the Model 3 actually started with the lowest SOC of any of the vehicles (most connected car) so it may have actually performed better than stated (as could the others).
Also note that the European E-tron benefits from having cameras in place of mirrors, lowering drag a not insignificant amount.
bhtooefr
Active Member
RobStark
Well-Known Member
The Original Fiskers had styling at the cost of interior space. A large sedan with tight seating for four.
The Ocean looks to have BEV maximum interior space. Given that with compact SUV form factor I think it looks great.
Reading the tea leaves it will be a Chinese compact SUV with Fisker interior and exterior styling.
Engineered in China and manufactured in China. I don't see Westerners paying premium prices for such a vehicle. We expect to pay MG ZS prices.
This is NOT true in general, they only help in "cool" but not "cold" weather.
Things work out nicely until the temperature are still well above freezing.
Once the condenser starts to collect ice, its effectiveness starts to disappear.
I'd like to see above test repeated in more general conditions at say 20 C (68 F).
The ratios might change a lot....
adiggs
Well-Known Member
H'mmm - is this what Peak Auto might look like?
The recession in global car sales shows no sign of ending - CNN
No mention in the article of how Tesla is holding up under (my observation) Peak Auto.
The corollary I see here is how difficult it's going to be for the big car makers to find investment capital when they're shrinking rather than growing.
The recession in global car sales shows no sign of ending - CNN
No mention in the article of how Tesla is holding up under (my observation) Peak Auto.
The corollary I see here is how difficult it's going to be for the big car makers to find investment capital when they're shrinking rather than growing.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
Some mildly interesting Mach-e news: Ford preps dealers for its first-ever battery-electric Mustang SUV
But the main reason for me posting it is this odd tidbit:
"That includes equipping dealer service shops with the necessary tools and equipment to pull the SUV’s battery out of the vehicle for maintenance and repairs, when needed."
Strikes me as odd that they're training their dealerships to perform routine maintenance by removing the entire battery pack.
But the main reason for me posting it is this odd tidbit:
"That includes equipping dealer service shops with the necessary tools and equipment to pull the SUV’s battery out of the vehicle for maintenance and repairs, when needed."
Strikes me as odd that they're training their dealerships to perform routine maintenance by removing the entire battery pack.
Thanks for posting that. I found this bit worrying:
"The national initiative isn't unprecedented: GM offered something similar when it first introduced the Bolt EV. Educating the sales and service staffs on the Mach-E is vital for an automaker pinning its future to the vehicle's success."
If it's vital for Ford's future, following the Bolt playbook isn't exactly dressing for success!
I guess the bottom line is going to be whether dealers grudgingly accept it and sell a few to cover the training costs and then throw in the towel, or enthusiastically promote it over their ICE cars.
The quality of cars has improved to a point that the average age of cars on US roads is over 12 now. Also a large percentage of the population can't afford a new car. I think the average age of US new car buyers is well into their 50s.
With such a pool of good quality used cars out there and most people forced to lease or buy used cars, that puts a huge downward pressure on the new car market. A new type of car with some kind of compelling feature over the existing pool of cars out there would sell because those who are marginally able to afford a new car will stretch their budget to buy this car. That's why Tesla is doing well. Their cars are the "killer app" driving sales.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
Ford is allocating 20k Mach-Es to the US market the first year. They have 3000 dealers, so the average dealer will sell one Mach-E every other month. How enthusiastic can a dealer afford to be for a car that doesn't help pay the rent, the utility bill or feed their employees?
For some reason, it didn't really sink in how many dealers they have until you put it that way. If most dealers undersell EVs due to future lost maintenance revenue, the OEMs are really screwed! That's quite a big ship to turn.
On the up side, this is the "first year", right? And it's probably not going to arrive until late. So they may get the opportunity to sell a couple a month.
I doubt that the more rural dealerships will sell any. When I was car shopping I looked at Ford first because there is a Ford dealership in town. We're right on the edge of the Portland metro area and I suspect a big chunk of their business is the rural areas to our east and north. It's about 20 miles to the next car dealership. I was talking with one of their sales people and he said they don't stock any new cars at all unless someone does a special order. The only new vehicles they sell are trucks, and about 2/3 of their stock are pickups.
The more urban Ford dealerships in Vancouver, WA and Portland usually have new cars for sale on the lot. Due to the low cost of electricity Washington is the #2 state in the US for EV sales, but you see almost none in the rural parts of the state. I expect the Mach E will at least get a look here in WA, but Tesla will continue to dominate in EV sales.
Doug DeMuro recently gave his thoughts on the Mach E:
He has some interesting points.
He also has two videos with thoughts on the Cybertruck.
bhtooefr
Active Member
It does have regenerative braking, but it's set up as a blended brake pedal instead.
...and how well that works really depends on how good Porsche is at making a blended brake pedal feel natural.
Ok, strictly speaking this is off-topic because it doesn’t relate to a BEV... but Lexus has announced basically SuperCruise... and I know this will come as a surprise, but there’s no specific delivery date.
Lexus says Autopilot-like feature will allow hands-free driving
Lexus says Autopilot-like feature will allow hands-free driving
Doggydogworld
Active Member
SuperCruise-like "hands off" ability comes this year, presumably on the 2021 LS flagship. There is talk they'll add "eyes off" ability via OTA (the system has LIDAR), but there there's definitely no delivery date on that.
Any word on where it's going to work? Geofenced or pre-mapped like SuperCruise or anywhere you like?
And is there any evidence they'll have OTA working?
Doggydogworld
Active Member
It's called "Highway Teammate", so I'll go out on a limb and predict it will be geofenced for highways....
OTA is more of a marketing issue, e.g. do their dealer agreements allow it, do their customers want it, etc.
Eyes-off is more of a regulatory issue. Eyes-off on highways would be a killer feature (ha), but the OEMs want a liability shield or similar regulatory cover before they deploy. The technology is there. Audi tried to toe-dip by restricting speeds to 60 kph where accidents are almost guaranteed to be walk-aways, but still got cold feet at the last minute.
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