Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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Ford has been trashing Tesla quality so they are very keen to make sure the vehicle is "tight".
Buying a first year new model from any car maker comes with some risk.
Buying a first year new model from any car maker comes with some risk.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
willow_hiller
Active Member
SmartElectric
Active Member
Poor-sche Taycan - $73,840 after federal tax credit ($7,500)
79.2 kWh battery
rear-wheel drive - 300 kW (402 hp) and 254 lb.-ft. of torque
0-60 mph in 5.1 seconds
the quarter mile in 13.7 seconds
top speed of 143 mph (230 km/h)
DC fast charging up to 225 kW; 5-80% SOC in 22.5 minutes
AC charging: 19.2 kW on-board charger
Well, it's about the same performance as my 2013 Model S, about the same battery capacity (accounting for 4% degradation) and rear wheel drive = fun to drive. What's not to like 8 years later?!
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Up to now the biggest driver of demand has been range and price.
But almost certainly Taycan's 2020 sales of 20,015 units were greater than Model S at a higher price, if Tesla gave us that information.
Noise,vibration,harshness(Comfort), quality of the interior, fit & finish, handling, and the repeatability of performance is also important.
wdolson
Well-Known Member
The Taycan also has the Porsche name. There was a lot of pent up demand for another automaker with a reputation for quality to come out with a car that could come close to competing with the Model S.
Tesla has a strong following like Apple, but there are also people who wouldn't touch a Tesla no matter what, just like the Apple haters out there.
X Fan
Supporting Member
add Premium package, self driving package plus leather-tec seats and delivered price incl transport is $96k.
Having owned a Porsche, you understand that base price is never your purchase price (and a “base” is never found in the lot). As an example, 14 in stock at Porsche Naples with lowest price $125K and highest at $211K: New Porsche Taycan Inventory | Porsche Naples
A loyal bunch of owners though and I suspect the electric Macan will be a big seller.
Having owned a Porsche, you understand that base price is never your purchase price (and a “base” is never found in the lot). As an example, 14 in stock at Porsche Naples with lowest price $125K and highest at $211K: New Porsche Taycan Inventory | Porsche Naples
A loyal bunch of owners though and I suspect the electric Macan will be a big seller.
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SmartElectric
Active Member
+1 Couldn't agree more! Porsche have done well enough in 2020, hope they really push the accelerator on their plans so more premium car buyers can opt for EV's! I truly appreciate the technology leap Porsche took to develop the Taycan, a lot of money and effort that would have otherwise been spend on gas drivetrains ... brave and awesome move by VW group.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'd say it was required for survival in the future.
SmartElectric
Active Member
Yes, indeed, but sometimes legacy companies fighting a new innovative competitor fall on old themes and fail to take brave steps. Cough .. Toyoota-chew.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
I guesstimate Model S sales were above 20k:
14.3k North America - 40% of Troy's 35.8k S/X estimate
5.3k Europe - TMC Registration Page
0.3k China - Model X completely dominates their 7k+ S/X sales
1.4k ROW - half of Troy's 2.8k S/X estimate, assume same 50/50 split as Europe
-------
21.3k
The widest error band is for North America, I used a 60/40 split based on CA New Car Dealers data. Using the same approach I estimate Taycan beat Model S in the second half of 2020, but not by enough to erase its first half deficit.
MXLRplus
Active Member
Yeah, sort of like my Full Self-Driving Tesla.
BTW - Did you read the thread title and sub-forum?
RobStark
Well-Known Member
I guesstimate Model X outsold Model S at least 3:1 and 5:1 in China.
Therefore no where near 20k global sales.
Buckminster
Active Member
UK review of the XPeng:
Xpeng P7 Super Long Range Premium 2021 review | Autocar
Xpeng P7 Super Long Range Premium 2021 review | Autocar
ammulder
'98 GS400 -> P3D+
You know, I've always been kind of assuming that Chinese brands wouldn't make it outside of China -- for the most part wouldn't even try.
If they do, then the legacy OEMs are triply-screwed.
Chinese brands would have to compete on price.
-it can be done but is it a long term strategy?
I suspect you need real innovation to stand out (see Tesla).
e.g. if the Chinese brands come out with Solid State Batteries with double the range of existing batteries it could work.
Perhaps if they "learn" enough technology from their "western partners" in China.
Brand history/status counts for a lot (see Tesla), especially as a lot of car parts can be bought from suppliers; so what is left.
And then you have the design appeal factor.
-it can be done but is it a long term strategy?
I suspect you need real innovation to stand out (see Tesla).
e.g. if the Chinese brands come out with Solid State Batteries with double the range of existing batteries it could work.
Perhaps if they "learn" enough technology from their "western partners" in China.
Brand history/status counts for a lot (see Tesla), especially as a lot of car parts can be bought from suppliers; so what is left.
And then you have the design appeal factor.
Inside the Nissan Sunderland UK announcement today (https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ssan-chief) were some helpful numbers,
"That [Nissan 62kWh Leaf] model is dependent on imports of valuable batteries with a capacity of 62 kilowatt-hours [kWh] imported from the US. However, Nissan has agreed a deal with its battery partner, Envision AESC, to produce the 62kWh battery in a plant next-door to Nissan’s factory. The Sunderland battery plant, which currently makes batteries with 40kWh capacity, was owned by Nissan until 2019, and supplies Nissan Sunderland exclusively.
The switch of spending from Asia to the UK will probably result in extra jobs in Sunderland, although Gupta said it was not possible to say how many at this stage. He also declined to detail the amount of new investment the plant would require, but said it would be possible to complete it before the end of this year. The Envision plant, whose annual battery output is about 1.9 Gigawatt hours [GWh], is considered to be relatively small compared with other automotive battery factories."
I reckon that Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi are currently using about 7-8 GWh/yr of batteries, which is about 9% share of total BEV+PHEV global use. So the Envision Sunderland plant is currently about 1/3 of that which suggests that the N/R/M alliance is still (net) importing as Europe is more than 1/3 of their BEV+PHEV market. I reckon they do ~220k cars/yr at present.
Expect to see a large wodge of taxpayer pork heading north !
"That [Nissan 62kWh Leaf] model is dependent on imports of valuable batteries with a capacity of 62 kilowatt-hours [kWh] imported from the US. However, Nissan has agreed a deal with its battery partner, Envision AESC, to produce the 62kWh battery in a plant next-door to Nissan’s factory. The Sunderland battery plant, which currently makes batteries with 40kWh capacity, was owned by Nissan until 2019, and supplies Nissan Sunderland exclusively.
The switch of spending from Asia to the UK will probably result in extra jobs in Sunderland, although Gupta said it was not possible to say how many at this stage. He also declined to detail the amount of new investment the plant would require, but said it would be possible to complete it before the end of this year. The Envision plant, whose annual battery output is about 1.9 Gigawatt hours [GWh], is considered to be relatively small compared with other automotive battery factories."
I reckon that Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi are currently using about 7-8 GWh/yr of batteries, which is about 9% share of total BEV+PHEV global use. So the Envision Sunderland plant is currently about 1/3 of that which suggests that the N/R/M alliance is still (net) importing as Europe is more than 1/3 of their BEV+PHEV market. I reckon they do ~220k cars/yr at present.
Expect to see a large wodge of taxpayer pork heading north !
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