I've never heard of any connection between Subaru and Ford. It does look like a Mach-E, but as @Knightshade said it's probably a shared platform with Toyota.
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Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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RobStark
Well-Known Member
There is no "probably."
It is a public fact. The Subaru is a Toyota bz4x with slightly different exterior styling and a Subaru interior.
Toyota, Subaru and Mazda have an alliance to make BEVs.
Ford Mustang Mach-E GT’s 5-second full power limit is a sneaky way to promote ICE
Ford has not been shy about the idea that the Mustang Mach-E GT is its most fun electric vehicle to date. Quick and powerful, the Mach-E GT promised zero-emissions fun behind the wheel. But in recent tests from auto review site Edmunds, it appears that the premium all-electric crossover features...
www.teslarati.com
I think I've found my answer to performance of the Mach e GT. Didn't expect that it would come from Edmunds...
Let's hope that Ford can increase the max output to longer than 5 seconds with a future update.
"“So what gives? Well, it’s because the Mach-E GT only ever gets five consecutive seconds of full power, that’s according to Ford, in order to preserve the battery life. Unfortunately, that makes the GT really disappointing to drive after a while, if you’re trying to go fast or even just have a little fun on a track. I mean, is that supposed to be a GT model or not? And on top of that, a GT Performance model, at that price with a five-second limit, I mean, in our minds, that’s unacceptable,” the Edmunds host said. "
Sounds a lot like Porsche's Taycan Turbo/S boost or whatever they call it. You get that for about Mach-E + $100k.
Ford Mustang Mach-E GT’s 5-second full power limit is a sneaky way to promote ICE
Ford has not been shy about the idea that the Mustang Mach-E GT is its most fun electric vehicle to date. Quick and powerful, the Mach-E GT promised zero-emissions fun behind the wheel. But in recent tests from auto review site Edmunds, it appears that the premium all-electric crossover features...
I think I've found my answer to performance of the Mach e GT. Didn't expect that it would come from Edmunds...
Let's hope that Ford can increase the max output to longer than 5 seconds with a future update.
"“So what gives? Well, it’s because the Mach-E GT only ever gets five consecutive seconds of full power, that’s according to Ford, in order to preserve the battery life. Unfortunately, that makes the GT really disappointing to drive after a while, if you’re trying to go fast or even just have a little fun on a track. I mean, is that supposed to be a GT model or not? And on top of that, a GT Performance model, at that price with a five-second limit, I mean, in our minds, that’s unacceptable,” the Edmunds host said. "
I watched the Edmunds video, in tech outside the electric power train it sounds like the Mach E has some advantages, but Tesla makes a better power train than anybody else. Tesla is at least a generation ahead of the competition in efficiency and power delivery.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Edmunds flashed this on the screen. But didn't talk about it much. Did they just do these test themselves?
The presenter said the Mach-e also had a more comfortable ride. Gave the win to Tesla because of the 5 second limit on max power for the Mach-e and Model Y access to the Supercharger Network.
I placed an order for one of these. It's still almost a year for delivery, so there's a possibility I'll cancel the order. If I like it, the wife can take the Model 3.
CarWOW and Bjorn Nyland also posted reviews with great impressions.
CarWOW and Bjorn Nyland also posted reviews with great impressions.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Watched the BMW review...don't take this personally but...
The "fast" one is only 3.9 0-60 (so slower than a Model 3 AWD+ and a LOT slower than a P) and you apparently only get that using special launch modes... range well under 300 (and significantly slower fast charging too).
Also $7000 more than a Model 3 P, and $13,000 more than an AWD+ (and being BMW, I expect that gap to get bigger with optioning)
Plus all the spots it looks super obvious they just shoved an EV drivetrain into an ICE platform (the no frunk being the most obvious though the poor rear legroom is another good clue)...and is that like... 15 buttons just on the steering wheel plus 2 scroll buttons as well?
It has fake engine noises though!
"competition"
I guess in the say something nice category- I do wish Tesla offered bolstered sport seats like that in the 3.
The "fast" one is only 3.9 0-60 (so slower than a Model 3 AWD+ and a LOT slower than a P) and you apparently only get that using special launch modes... range well under 300 (and significantly slower fast charging too).
Also $7000 more than a Model 3 P, and $13,000 more than an AWD+ (and being BMW, I expect that gap to get bigger with optioning)
Plus all the spots it looks super obvious they just shoved an EV drivetrain into an ICE platform (the no frunk being the most obvious though the poor rear legroom is another good clue)...and is that like... 15 buttons just on the steering wheel plus 2 scroll buttons as well?
It has fake engine noises though!
"competition"
I guess in the say something nice category- I do wish Tesla offered bolstered sport seats like that in the 3.
I appreciate the feedback. There's no doubt that the Model 3 has better specs and price compared to the BMW, but it still seems to me like the best alternative to the M3 even when including a base Taycan. I'm not trying to claim that is better, but if I already have a Model 3 and want something different, I can't think of any other sedan that I like.
It shares the platform with the ICE 4 series, so yes, there is a lot of wasted space, but the rear cargo area is bigger than the M3 trunk and it's a hatch, rear seats will be used only by my dog, so I'll be okay.
I'm leaning towards the cheaper slow version, and I'm expecting to get $11k on discounts between BMW, state and tax rebate, so $44k + $4k on options won't be that bad.
Looks to me that legacy auto is starting to deliver reasonably to very good EVs. Especially with Tesla raising prices it will be interesting to see how market shares shift in 2022. Doesn't look like any particular legacy company is able to deliver in volume yet.
Legacy auto makers have advantages in areas where Tesla doesn't want to deliver like some creature comforts or can't seem to deliver like superior fit and finish and service, but so far nobody is able to compete with Tesla in the core areas of EV tech: range/KWh, control of battery supply, and charging network.
Tesla may or may not win out on self driving. That space has tremendous competition and nobody has perfected it yet.
Tesla raising their prices isn't really a draw back for them vs the competition because the reason for the price hike is an issue plaguing everyone. Tesla, with their vertical integration is one of the least affected of the auto makers. Everyone else relies on a slew of suppliers spread out all over the world, their supply headaches are worse than Tesla. Each one of those suppliers has their own supply chain and one hiccup in their supply chain causes problems downstream.
Tesla may or may not win out on self driving. That space has tremendous competition and nobody has perfected it yet.
Tesla raising their prices isn't really a draw back for them vs the competition because the reason for the price hike is an issue plaguing everyone. Tesla, with their vertical integration is one of the least affected of the auto makers. Everyone else relies on a slew of suppliers spread out all over the world, their supply headaches are worse than Tesla. Each one of those suppliers has their own supply chain and one hiccup in their supply chain causes problems downstream.
Which would be your top choice over a Tesla and why? I haven't found anything that stacks up yet. If it is due to it being cheaper overall due to incentives, but lacking objectively otherwise then I totally get it. But maybe it is styling, interior finishes, other features...etc
here is a list (not complete, but fairly good).
could you name which ones you prefer please
Doggydogworld
Active Member
There are many reasons to buy EQS, Lucid Air or Taycan over Model S. And reasons to buy Model S over those. People overemphasize the areas where their preferred brand wins and downplay the rest.
The same is true with 3/Y in Europe where that segment is pretty competitive. It's starting to happen in China where 3/Y competitors recently appeared. The tiny US EV market is not competitive. A few OEMs do offer their Euro EVs here, but in low quantity and often only in CA and other ZEV states.
The US EV pickup market is shaping up to be a lot more competitive. It'll be interesting to watch that unfold.
I drive a Model 3. It is easily the best car I have ever had.
What I'm referring to is that finally instead of the Bolt, Leaf and various half-assed 200mile EVs there is now starting to be reasonable alternatives to the 3/Y such as the Mach-E, Polestar and Kona.
For various reasons I wouldn't buy any of them (e.g., Mach-E thermal issues). I am wondering how profitable these cars can be and how much battery supply is available to support production ramp.
a few years back i did a bunch of pie graphs of kwh of batteries being used by various BEV and PHEV’s
it was fairly obvious back then that Tesla was using like 70-80% of batteries (memory fades but)
it’s the batteries, otherwise the competition is just non moving “yard art”
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Yeah, supply remains the choke hold against "the competition" from coming in any meaningful way.
Mach E production is expected to top out at ~50k total vehicles for the year, 1/10th of what Tesla was making last year, near 1/20th of this year.... (and most of the Mach Es they ARE making are going to the EU where emissions fines are higher)
F-150 EV production is gonna be so pathetic they're going to have moved on to the next-generation platform in 3 years before they've even made enough to meet existing pre-orders for the thing.
Over at GM their "leading the way" with 200 kwh 3000+ lb battery packs in their $100,000+ EV hummer, which MIGHT be profitable at that price, but makes it clear it's about the only way they can figure to make $ on 200 kwh of cells, rather than building 3 actual decent cars with those same cells.
Nissan, which having beaten even Tesla to market with a mass market EV in the leaf, ought to have been in a decent spot here... instead their next EV has a price/spec ratio that makes Fiskers offering look good in comparison... (and Nissan is still a year out from production)
I agree legacy auto is finally making EVs that aren't garbage even if they're only just now catching up (or still not in case of say the hummer) to 2012 Teslas technology and specs. But they're not making many, and lack the capability of making them in volume.
is that really competition? Naah.
The competition for any decent new EV isn't Tesla. It's the existing ICE vehicles from the legacy companies.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
US: Ford Mustang Mach-E Sales Improved In October 2021
Ford Mustang Mach-E sales in October amounted to 2,848 (1.7% of Ford's total result), which is the third best monthly result so far.
insideevs.com
The rumored goal for Mach-e was 50k this year.
As of Oct 31, production was over 55k and sales were ~ 53k.
Ford just doubled EV production goals for 2024 from 282k to 600k.
For 2024 Ford will debut a Ford electric 3 row Explorer bigger and cheaper than a Model X.
Ford is building a recent history of under promising and over delivering.
GM is almost finished building its 1st Ultium GF in Ohio. About to break ground on its 2nd in Tennessee.
GM doesn't have large cell supply today better to sell $60k+ Lyriqs with 100 kW batteries and Hummers with 200 kWh batteries in the $80k-$115k price range. Silverado EV will be revealed at CES January 4-5. Tesla's cheapest car in the US is $45k. Silverado EV should at least match that.
Somehow people on this site like to take a dump on GM and Ford but give Stellantis a pass. Is it because it is French owned? And most Americans like to take shots at American owned companies?
The 800v architecture vehicles coming form Hyundai Kia are very compelling. EV6 EV9 Ioniq 5 and Ioniq 7. Long range with 350 kW charging.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
US: Ford Mustang Mach-E Sales Improved In October 2021
Ford Mustang Mach-E sales in October amounted to 2,848 (1.7% of Ford's total result), which is the third best monthly result so far.
The rumored goal for Mach-e was 50k this year.
Not quite-- it was 50k in first year of production.
Production began October 2020.
First year ends Sept 30th.
Per your link they DID make it-- but not with much to spare. And it's still roughly 1/20th the # of EVs Tesla is likely to make this year.
I'm curious where they found more than 2x the battery supply from.
Though having a 2024 goal of "a little more than Tesla made in 2020" still does not seem SUPER competitive... Tesla is likely to be producing well north of 3 million EVs a year by then.
"hopes to"
....?
Apart from the Mach E, whcih appears to have delivered basically right on target (within a few % of original first year production #) what specifically did they under-promise and OVER deliver on?
AFAIK none of their other EVs have been delivered at all. And won't be this year.
Hopefully THESE LG pouch cells don't have the fire issues the previous ones did...
Though based on their density #s from the Hummer packs, they're pretty unimpressive cells even if safe.
If they're trying to sell fewer total EVs, sure.
GM is gonna sell a full sized consumer pickup for 45k?
I ask before not even Ford is doing that... the "cheap" EV F150 is only for contractors.
In 2017 GM promised 20 new EVs by 2023.
So far they've delivered... 0 of em.
2 of the 20 are coming next year (Lyric and Hummer- in small #s for both).
Do you think they're gonna deliver 18 more new EVs in 2023? Or did they, once again, lead only via press release?
I think it's more Stellantis isn't constantly holding media events about how they're LEADING THE WAY when it's clear they ain't leading Jack or You Know What.
Hyundai/Kia have indeed been making some quite good EVs spec/price wise.
Volume production- not so much.
Their own execs have lamented they're battery starved and see no solution for that in the near term.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
61k cumulative production through October 31 minus 3.8k this October means 57k+ in the first full year of production.
Maybe buying some of Kato Road's 10 GWh /s
Escape (Kuga) PHEV.
Should use Panasonic NCA, none of which ever burned /s
Anyone can buy the base Lightning. Or get in line, at least. Meanwhile Tesla gave the 40k Cybertruck the Peng Shuai treatment.
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