Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[Knightshade]

Tesla 3/Y are the #3 and #2 best selling cars in California.

YM
#2 and #1
HTH!

California Love: Tesla Model Y, Model 3 Are State's Best-Selling Cars

Tesla was California's second best-selling auto brand overall, reaching 10.7% share of the state's new car and light truck market.

insideevs.com

The Tesla Model Y became the state's number one model overall with 42,320 sales in the first six months, while the Model 3 ranked a close second with 38,993 sales

 

[30seconds]

I stand corrected.

Quite a few of my friends have various Teslas. Haven’t heard any of them complain about quality issues. Almost all of them say something like - “it’s the best car I’ve ever driven.”

To me it seems like the JD powers / CR surveys are very much built for ICE cars. There is nothing about satisfaction regarding charging, environment, ease of use, let alone advances like built in security and accident recordings, remote temp management, auto routing from you calendar, etc.

It’s night and day from a normal ICE made by Toyota or Ford or BMW and the ratings groups are blind to it

 

[RobStark]

Tesla 3/Y are the #3 and #2 best selling cars in California. Plus Tesla has incredible brand loyalty / repeat purchase rate.

Who are you going to believe, JD Powers or your lying eyes?

GM Trucks are a few tenths behind #1 Ford Trucks in brand loyalty/repeat purchase rate. GM has ~14% US market share, Ford has ~13% US market share while Tesla has ~3% US market share. There are several States where Ford F Series and Silverado/Sierra are 1 or 2 on the sales chart.

And yet can we all agree GM and Ford have a bad reputation for quality.

Good sales numbers and good brand loyalty don't necessarily go hand in hand with good reputation for quality/reliability.

 

[RobStark]

I stand corrected.

Quite a few of my friends have various Teslas. Haven’t heard any of them complain about quality issues. Almost all of them say something like - “it’s the best car I’ve ever driven.”

To me it seems like the JD powers / CR surveys are very much built for ICE cars. There is nothing about satisfaction regarding charging, environment, ease of use, let alone advances like built in security and accident recordings, remote temp management, auto routing from you calendar, etc.

It’s night and day from a normal ICE made by Toyota or Ford or BMW and the ratings groups are blind to it

Go to GM and Ford fan sites. You will get plenty of the same testimonials.

The environment has nothing to do with quality/reliability. Neither does ease of use. Although some times people can't figure out how to engage/use a feature, may wounder if it is missing, and report it as a failure. And many would rank Tesla low on ease of use. Particularly older folks.

There are separate surveys for many of those things like overall satisfaction and would you buy again.

JD Powers just released a survey on charging networks. And Tesla Supercharger Network came out #1. I posted it the US Market thread.

 

[wdolson]

I see the same thing in real life.

Here is Los Angeles people have been very exposed to Tesla in real life.

GM vehicles earned their reputation for bad quality roughly from 1974-1994. It is really no longer true. All brands have lemons and recalls. But bad reputation is hard to shake off once you have it.

GM has basically lost baby boomers on the West Coast and Northeast. But I think they can make inroads with other demographics.

GM had some truly bad small cars right about the time the country started looking for small cars. Japanese imports were showing up in larger numbers right at the same time. A lot of loyalties switched from American to Japanese cars around that time.

In the mid-70s GM's large cars were OK, though not as good as they were in the 60s. My family had a 1974 Caprice that was OK, but got 8 mpg. The next generation GM large cars were better after they solved the bad transmission problem the early cars had. But the styling of the late 70s to early 90s GM cars was very cookie cutter. There wasn't much difference between a Chevy and a Cadillac which drove away a lot of the wealthier buyers.

When I was a teenager I got the family Caprice as a hand me down and my friend had a 1974 Vega. The Caprice kept going until I was in college, but my friend's Vega was always a maintenance headache and died completely a couple of years after he got it.

 

[wws]

GM had some truly bad small cars right about the time the country started looking for small cars. Japanese imports were showing up in larger numbers right at the same time. A lot of loyalties switched from American to Japanese cars around that time.

In the mid-70s GM's large cars were OK, though not as good as they were in the 60s. My family had a 1974 Caprice that was OK, but got 8 mpg. The next generation GM large cars were better after they solved the bad transmission problem the early cars had. But the styling of the late 70s to early 90s GM cars was very cookie cutter. There wasn't much difference between a Chevy and a Cadillac which drove away a lot of the wealthier buyers.

When I was a teenager I got the family Caprice as a hand me down and my friend had a 1974 Vega. The Caprice kept going until I was in college, but my friend's Vega was always a maintenance headache and died completely a couple of years after he got it.

The 1973 and 1974 model years were particularly bad, due to gov't mandates on engine emission controls and crash safety requirements. The car companies simply were not able to adapt to the new requirements quickly enough, and the result was a disaster. The engines had poor performance and the cars were very heavy. The 1975 model year was better. The near universal adoption of catalytic converters allowed the engines to be tuned better. Of course this was right about the time of the fuel crisis - which opened a wide gap in the market the Japanese were only too happy to fill...

It took another 10 years for the domestics to incorporate things like the transverse FWD engine configuration for better packaging efficiency and electronic fuel injection for better engine performance across their product lines.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Dodge unveils new electric muscle car concept that could replace the Challenger and Charger

Dodge on Wednesday unveiled a new concept car called the Charger Daytona SRT as a preview of its first all-electric muscle car, expected in 2024.

www.cnbc.com

A few head-scratchingly bizarre quotes in here.

I think we can cross Dodge off the list of competitors.

It features a multispeed transmission and exhaust that give the car the feel and sound of a gas-powered muscle car.

Kuniskis said some of the design elements and technologies are expected to impact the electric range of the vehicles, but it’s not something Dodge is necessarily worried about.

“Don’t care; it’s badass ... it’s a muscle car,” Kuniskis said.

Lol!

 

[AndrewZ]

Dodge unveils new electric muscle car concept that could replace the Challenger and Charger

Dodge on Wednesday unveiled a new concept car called the Charger Daytona SRT as a preview of its first all-electric muscle car, expected in 2024.

www.cnbc.com

A few head-scratchingly bizarre quotes in here.

I think we can cross Dodge off the list of competitors.





Lol!

There's no shortage of ICE fans who loathe the idea of switching to electric purely because of what they perceive as a lack of sound and character, many of them are probably exactly the customers who are buying things like Challengers and Chargers and who produce a disproportionate volume of emissions per mile based on the nature of those vehicles.

For the sake of the EV transition and fighting climate change, I'd be thanking Dodge for trying to put out something that will hopefully help convert that niche of naysayers

 

[wdolson]

Dodge unveils new electric muscle car concept that could replace the Challenger and Charger

Dodge on Wednesday unveiled a new concept car called the Charger Daytona SRT as a preview of its first all-electric muscle car, expected in 2024.

www.cnbc.com

A few head-scratchingly bizarre quotes in here.

I think we can cross Dodge off the list of competitors.





Lol!

There is a cadre of gear heads who are obsessed with the "exhaust note" of a car. Personally I never understood it.

Tesla has proven that EVs don't need a transmission with changeable gears. They tried to do it with the original Roadster and had to give up because they couldn't make a two speed transmission that could withstand the torque changes. Porsche did do a 2 speed transmission for their first EV, but then it's Porsche.

If Dodge tries to put multi-speed transmissions into their EV muscle cars they are probably going to either do something to slow down the instant torque hitting the transmission, or give up on a multi-speed transmission.

This isn't the first time they had a problem with torque. I can't find the info now, but I vaguely remember they had a recall some years back when they started putting large diesels in their pickups. The drive shafts could break from the torque. They had to make the drive shafts from a higher grade of steel.

Dodge cars are facing the same problem Oldsmobile had: their demographic is getting older. They have kept the production lines open by selling nostalgia to boomers who had a muscle car back in the 60s and a few of their kids who have fond memories of working on their father's muscle car when they were kids. They have also sold to a demographic looking for the most politically incorrect vehicle out there. All of those are limited markets.

I've always thought Chysler's brands were going to be among those on the chopping block of history when the world switched to EVs.

The Chrysler division of Stellantis is facing something of a crisis. The parent company has told the divisions that they need to electrify or be shut down so Chrysler is scrambling to electrify starting from well behind almost every other manufacturer. The European brands of Stellantis are well along the electrification curve. They have had to be due to coming mandates in the EU about electrification, but Chrysler has dragged their feet doing as little as possible to electrify their fleets.

Ram trucks and Jeep are the only vehicles that make much profit at Chrysler. They are starting well behind the pack in electrifying their trucks. They will have loyal buyers, but as their drivers end up driving electric vehicles for work and liking them, Ford and GM will start getting their truck buying business because they will have electric trucks when Chrysler brands don't. Doug DeMuro thinks that the Cybertruck's biggest market share are going to be other Tesla owners and Jeep owners. The Cybertruck is going to appeal more to the casual truck owner who uses it more for recreation than someone looking for a work truck. The work truck crowd are going to go for the F-150 Lightning and the EV Silverado because they look like the other trucks on the worksite. The Ford and GM trucks will also take all the custom beds out there that fit the ICE GM and Ford trucks, which is a big selling point for the work truck market.

 

[JRP3]

There's no shortage of ICE fans who loathe the idea of switching to electric purely because of what they perceive as a lack of sound and character, many of them are probably exactly the customers who are buying things like Challengers and Chargers and who produce a disproportionate volume of emissions per mile based on the nature of those vehicles.

For the sake of the EV transition and fighting climate change, I'd be thanking Dodge for trying to put out something that will hopefully help convert that niche of naysayers

We are nowhere near the stage that it's necessary to go after that market, few of who will likely be swayed by an EV faking ICE characteristics. They will be the last holdouts regardless. Some people never gave up riding horses as well.

 

[DrGriz]

We are nowhere near the stage that it's necessary to go after that market, few of who will likely be swayed by an EV faking ICE characteristics. They will be the last holdouts regardless. Some people never gave up riding horses as well.

I'd take the sound of horse exhaust over an ICE engine (particularly 2 cycle) any day of the week.

 

[adiggs]

We are nowhere near the stage that it's necessary to go after that market, few of who will likely be swayed by an EV faking ICE characteristics. They will be the last holdouts regardless. Some people never gave up riding horses as well.

While I do agree with the sentiment (that its not a market that needs tackling) I don't agree with the conclusion. Part of Elon's brilliance with this EV thing is that he hasn't been investing energy into telling people what they should want / need, but rather building stuff that works economically and that people want and will buy. I put this into the same category, except here its Dodge and muscle cars that are trying to build what (they believe) people want. (lots of other caveats about whether they'll actually build 'em etc..).

I don't know if they will be able to make the economics of that market work for them - I also think that engine noise and transmission in an EV is a mistaken path for them to go down. But its also the case that this is part of how capitalism works - people go build stuff that they think others want to buy; some of them work out, many of them don't. The market will let us know.

And hey - if it does work out, then that's another market (that makes no sense to me) that will be busy electrifying.

 

[AndrewZ]

We are nowhere near the stage that it's necessary to go after that market, few of who will likely be swayed by an EV faking ICE characteristics. They will be the last holdouts regardless. Some people never gave up riding horses as well.

This is a concept car of something slated to hit the roads in 2024, and we all know how schedules can change. Then you have a production ramp to some extent if you want to offset any significant numbers, it’ll be 2025-2026 before this is is out in force.

Many countries have set 2030-2035 targets of either fully or almost fully electrified new vehicle sales, I don’t think “too soon” exists right now in terms of at least getting everything into concept/design stage if we’re going to hit these goals.

 

[Unclepaul]

This is going to be key to understanding who qualifies for the full Federal credit and who does not.

View attachment 839486

There are tremendous deposits of all these natural resources within the USA/Canada. Only thing keeping us from digging them up is that doing so is dirty business and environmentalists (George Soros) don't want America to be independant of foreign sources. If mining would be allowed, all these minerals could certaintly be local sourced.

 

[Unclepaul]

I also see people in my internet circles saying similar things. But my internet circles are EV-focused forums, subreddits, and Twitter accounts.

EVs are still niche enough for most people not to have really thought much about them (aside from the occasional misconceptions that slip into the mainstream).

Panel gap issues have more to do with the Ego of the buyer, than with the inherent quality of the cars.

 

[MP3Mike]

Bjorn testing a BMW i4 M50 and found that after charging that it restricted power by more than 50% for almost a half while driving until the battery cooled down:

And after the first charge in the trip it restricted charging speed. (Either the press car they loaned him is broken, or their engineering is really bad.)

 

[wdolson]

We are nowhere near the stage that it's necessary to go after that market, few of who will likely be swayed by an EV faking ICE characteristics. They will be the last holdouts regardless. Some people never gave up riding horses as well.

Horses still have a real economic purpose. They are better suited than vehicles to some tasks in farming and on ranches.

Though most horses kept today are for recreation and there are limits to where you can ride a horse.

ICE will remain around and will be used for some kinds of special purposes. If you're going somewhere without electricity like some parts of the Australian Outback, driving an ICE with extra gas cans makes more sense than driving an electric unless you want to stop every couple of hundred miles and charge with solar panels for several days. There will also be people who keep classic cars running and people who do some kind of recreation with them.

We will also continue to pump oil and use it. Petroleum has many uses beyond burning it for fuel. That's just the largest use right now. On top of that we don't have a good alternative for using fossil fuels for aviation and long range shipping. We might someday, but right now there is no solution.

 

[Discoducky]

Toyota exec: US’ 50% EV goal for 2030 a long shot due to lack of demand

The executive's stance is quite simple: the US' 50% electric vehicle goal for 2030 is a long shot due to a lack of consumer demand.

www.teslarati.com

...when the wheels fall off...yes.

 

[DrGriz]

Toyota exec: US’ 50% EV goal for 2030 a long shot due to lack of demand

The executive's stance is quite simple: the US' 50% electric vehicle goal for 2030 is a long shot due to a lack of consumer demand.

www.teslarati.com

...when the wheels fall off...yes.

Toyota want to sell Hydrogen cars instead. Because the infrastructure is better?

2024 Toyota Mirai | Toyota.com

Experience pure innovation and cleaner power with the all-new 2024 Toyota Mirai. Hydrogen and oxygen combine to generate power to propel us into a future of possibilities.

www.toyota.com

Up to 400 mile range. But how do you get back once you're there?

 

[ZsoZso]

Toyota want to sell Hydrogen cars instead. Because the infrastructure is better?

2024 Toyota Mirai | Toyota.com

Experience pure innovation and cleaner power with the all-new 2024 Toyota Mirai. Hydrogen and oxygen combine to generate power to propel us into a future of possibilities.

www.toyota.com

Up to 400 mile range. But how do you get back once you're there?

View attachment 844930

Oh, you just catch some Hydrogen, I hear it is the most abundant element in the Universe