Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I just posted more or less something to the exact same extent in the Cory Johnson thread
Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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I just posted more or less something to the exact same extent in the Cory Johnson thread
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
- Dec 8, 2007
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The funny thing about the Phaeton EV was that it was announced just a month before. Even for VAG that must be a new record in terms of the amount of time they cancelled one of their announced EVs.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
I would be happy if VW Group fully stocks eGolf at dealerships across the USA and brings the PHEV Golf GTE to the states.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Given VWAG's history of making grand announcements that turn out to be vaporware, I'm not surprised that their presentations are met with skepticism. I'll believe VW when they actually show working prototypes of their vehicles, demonstrate fast charging, and explain how and when they plan to achieve volume production.
BriansTesla
Old school meets new tech
The somewhat painful part of all this is that the number one thing that is keeping VW from accomplishing any of this is the "want to". They no doubt have plenty of capabilities, just missing any real desire to make it happen.
Probably the same for most of the manufacturers. Good thing Tesla is pushing them so hard!
wdolson
Well-Known Member
I've been beginning to wonder if these sorts of things are only intended to get people to delay buying a Tesla, thereby hurting Tesla, then after Tesla folds, they can go on selling whatever they want to push.
If you read Bob Lutz's column in Road and Track he claims Audi will have a Tesla killer out by 2018 and if Tesla and Audi are offering similar cars, which would you choose? He asks it as a rhetorical question because as a car industry insider, his answer would be a "no duh Audi". That's how the car industry people think. They believe that if people at least think the mainstream car industry is going to catch up to Tesla soon, all they need to do is put out enough teasers with vaporware so people will put off buying Teslas until Tesla folds and then their problem is sorted.
What they don't get is that quite a few potential car buyers when faced with similar Audis or Teslas would go for the Tesla. I would. There would be some who would go for the Audi, but probably a smaller percentage of the population than the car makers think.
Bangor Bob
Member
While not specifically aimed at Tesla, that's essentially the entire point of these "far from delivery" press releases from the various automakers. It keeps their name in the media, associates the brand with "the future", but doesn't actually require them to spend much or deliver anything. And in the meantime, please buy our (very comfortable and otherwise fairly well-engineered) CO2Wagen.
Tesla competition: my view of it:
1. Great, if real. We need all cars to stop using fuels that fuel oil wars and recycled energy pollution (oil and coal mostly being recycled sun power).
2. Should be considered irrelevant if fake.
2a. Vaporware is just something everyone should ignore except to note it as a tendency of that source. People here say VW has vaporware. Also, many other places have it: Tesla, Apple, etc..
2b. It can be part of techniques to appease those who would rather have access to, say, an EV, or more EV options and competition, but not to actually do it.
2c. Therefore, if it is simply announced, you can respond in kind: just kind of sympathetically nod "good" and ignore them until it's real.
3. I'd like Tesla to succeed fairly well to the point that they can still stay in business and blaze some trails that others have to either follow or have competitive options to. If someone invents some sort of "cold fusion hizzie hydrogen helium cross bar superfragilistic" energy source that works in a 7-wheeled car that never pollutes and doesn't cause the rise of weird violent religions and wars, and sells a million of them, GREAT! The more the merrier. But Tesla would be there to sort of set the baseline, the as-good-as.
3b. If the SuperCharger network of Tesla is the only one ever made, we're kind of screwed unless Tesla becomes Ford-level ubiquitous, in which case, whatever. Not best option, but second best.
3c. If other companies start to offer charging that all makes can use and really works well, then that's good. Currently we have other charging networks that are expensive, unreliable, slow, etc., but hopefully that will improve with time.
3d. Of course, if work parking lots all offer all types of vehicle charging, then that would solve that. Rich retired people who don't park at work can buy whatever home charging they need, and only travel to resorts that also have the appropriate destination charging. The occasional trip planning for intermediate charge points would just become a sort of thing we all have to do.
Prettymuch the only bad outcome I would not want is returning to 100% ICE vehicles.
1. Great, if real. We need all cars to stop using fuels that fuel oil wars and recycled energy pollution (oil and coal mostly being recycled sun power).
2. Should be considered irrelevant if fake.
2a. Vaporware is just something everyone should ignore except to note it as a tendency of that source. People here say VW has vaporware. Also, many other places have it: Tesla, Apple, etc..
2b. It can be part of techniques to appease those who would rather have access to, say, an EV, or more EV options and competition, but not to actually do it.
2c. Therefore, if it is simply announced, you can respond in kind: just kind of sympathetically nod "good" and ignore them until it's real.
3. I'd like Tesla to succeed fairly well to the point that they can still stay in business and blaze some trails that others have to either follow or have competitive options to. If someone invents some sort of "cold fusion hizzie hydrogen helium cross bar superfragilistic" energy source that works in a 7-wheeled car that never pollutes and doesn't cause the rise of weird violent religions and wars, and sells a million of them, GREAT! The more the merrier. But Tesla would be there to sort of set the baseline, the as-good-as.
3b. If the SuperCharger network of Tesla is the only one ever made, we're kind of screwed unless Tesla becomes Ford-level ubiquitous, in which case, whatever. Not best option, but second best.
3c. If other companies start to offer charging that all makes can use and really works well, then that's good. Currently we have other charging networks that are expensive, unreliable, slow, etc., but hopefully that will improve with time.
3d. Of course, if work parking lots all offer all types of vehicle charging, then that would solve that. Rich retired people who don't park at work can buy whatever home charging they need, and only travel to resorts that also have the appropriate destination charging. The occasional trip planning for intermediate charge points would just become a sort of thing we all have to do.
Prettymuch the only bad outcome I would not want is returning to 100% ICE vehicles.
The media and some analysts seem to overstate Tesla's influence.
Upcoming emission regulations and subsidies in places like Norway paired with cheaper/better batteries and better charging infrastructure (see CCS statistics I posted, especially in Europe over the past months and it's only the start) will increase EV and PHEV demand.
VW will have to introduce more EVs because of emission regulations, with or without Tesla existing, even more so after the Diesel scandal.
These new laws and the scandal will influence large car makers magnitudes more than Tesla.
VW Group sells over 10 million cars per year, including very high-end brands such as Lambo and Bentley. How many cars does Tesla sell again?
VW has other worries than Tesla.
It would be a heck of a lot easier for companies to fight back against emissions regulations without the existence (proof of concept) of Tesla. I think you may be underestimating the impact that Tesla is having on the auto industry worldwide, even with a small market share (though still fairly significant in the premium market they are currently in). Tesla has removed their crutch.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Because manufacturers have never gotten regulations eased before?
The success of Tesla has not only had the benefit of bringing battery prices down, but negatively affected FCEV adoption, and accelerated BEV.
Give credit where it's due, man.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
- Dec 8, 2007
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Tesla is pretty much the only reason why EVs are even consider a viable and desirable alternative especially at the higher end. If not, it'll all be about other methods like diesel, hybrid, PHEVs. Also it'll be a lot easier to lobby for governments to wait for technology like hydrogen (as they successfully did when Tesla didn't exist yet). Now those excuses don't work when Tesla is demonstrating a viable long range high end EV.
BriansTesla
Old school meets new tech
Yes, VW has a lot of worries (10 million) and Tesla is helping turn the screws. How many high end buyers would be interested in an electric Bentley or Lambo? Wonder why?
How many people would trade in their TDI for an electric VW? Wonder why? Hint: It's not Audi's "art of engineering" or their "truth in engineering" !
SebastianR
Active Member
[Citation needed] - seriously, I would like to see proof for your claim (and nope, the "we will invest 100m into alternative engines" doesn't really count.
I see VW do absolutely nothing on the EV front (aside from producing even more vapoware / press releases). For one, they axed their development budget, then analysts call for even further cuts in 2016 (same article), then their boss says that things will be delayed:
"We will strictly prioritise all planned investments and expenditures . . . Anything that is not absolutely necessary will be cancelled or postponed."
Then no company can both manage an ever-increasing unraveling of a big corporate melt-down (remember, they just admitted yesterday, that even more cars have the cheat device - by the way, that's under the new management now!) and at the same point in time get corporate culture changed / R&D going to a point they can actually compete with an agile start-up like Tesla.
I would agree had you said something about Mercedes or BMW. But I don't see anything positive at all from VW in the coming year or so. They need to focus on crisis management - in fact, as a shareholder of VW I would probably NOT want them to invest into "risky future business" and rather have them fix the current cash cows first.
Adm
Active Member
wdolson
Well-Known Member
It looks a bit smaller than the Model 3 will be and I haven't seen anything on the battery size or range, not if it's a PHEV or a BEV. It might be targeted more at the Leaf and Bolt market than the Model 3. Though it does show Hyundai is in the advanced stages of some kind of EV project.
According to this they are making a hybrid and a pure electric. The pictures in this article from August look like the same car:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/spie...i-prius-fighter-spills-its-all-electric-guts/
The article mentions "Prius fighter" too.
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Hyundai Commits To 2016 Launch Of Midsize Electric Car Powered By Next-Generation LG Chem Batteries
Remember ?
The fact that the car is charging while on trailer after running out of battery suggests its not an PHEV, also apparently it has an EV only Sticker
So will we get 40k$ 200 Mile EV 1-2 years ahead of Model 3?
Remember ?
The fact that the car is charging while on trailer after running out of battery suggests its not an PHEV, also apparently it has an EV only Sticker
So will we get 40k$ 200 Mile EV 1-2 years ahead of Model 3?
Bangor Bob
Member
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