Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[Auzie]

I saw the car at the NY auto show. I thought it was reasonably nice looking and the interior was quite nice for a mid $30K car (assuming the full tax rebate). A Mercedes that seats 5 with a cost of ownership comparable to a well-equipped Camry or Accord? This might partly be my Tesla bias, but I think a family with two cars could be quite satisfied with this car and another to do any road trips. All that said, looking at the photo I do see the shrunken mini van (hard not to see it in the picture now ), but it never occurred to me in person.

It is not a bad car, Camry or Accord is a reasonable comparison. I just expected a bit more (class) from MB.

 

[SteveG3]

It is not a bad car, Camry or Accord is a reasonable comparison. I just expected a bit more (class) from MB.

Auzie, what have you seen that makes it seem to be light on class?

I must admit I don't think I've ever been in a Mercedes built in the last 10 years other than this one, and I only spent about 5 minutes inside the B Class, but the interior really struck me as very nice. Far better than a 2014 Accord I've been in, and noticeably nicer than the 2015 Volvo S60 I'm thinking of getting if I wait for a Gen III (though I've only been inside that Volvo about 5 minutes as well, so take that comparison with a grain of salt).

 

[Auzie]

Auzie, what have you seen that makes it seem to be light on class?

I must admit I don't think I've ever been in a Mercedes built in the last 10 years other than this one, and I only spent about 5 minutes inside the B Class, but the interior really struck me as very nice. Far better than a 2014 Accord I've been in, and noticeably nicer than the 2015 Volvo S60 I'm thinking of getting if I wait for a Gen III (though I've only been inside that Volvo about 5 minutes as well, so take that comparison with a grain of salt).

I have not seen the car's interior. Its outside look, which is ok, is in line with as you stated, Camry. MB is a premium brand. My expectation from any MB car, no matter how small, is to have something 'premium' in comparison to other brands. I do not see that premium bit on this car. That makes it inconsistent with MB branding. I could be wrong. Maybe its interior is a premium bit.

For me, car shape, color and size are some of deciding factors when buying, more so than interior.

Volvo is not a very popular brand here. There is even a term 'Volvo driver'. For that reason alone, some people stay away from Volvo, which may be a great car. It just got that unfortunate branding attached, bad luck.

It is amazing what sort of trivial and irrelevant things affect driver's choices of a car, not easy for car makers to get it right. Though game. :smile:

 

[SteveG3]

I have not seen the car's interior. Its outside look, which is ok, is in line with as you stated, Camry. MB is a premium brand. My expectation from any MB car, no matter how small, is to have something 'premium' in comparison to other brands. I do not see that premium bit on this car. That makes it inconsistent with MB branding. I could be wrong. Maybe its interior is a premium bit.

For me, car shape, color and size are some of deciding factors when buying, more so than interior.

Volvo is not a very popular brand here. There is even a term 'Volvo driver'. For that reason alone, some people stay away from Volvo, which may be a great car. It just got that unfortunate branding attached, bad luck.

It is amazing what sort of trivial and irrelevant things affect driver's choices of a car, not easy for car makers to get it right. Though game. :smile:

Auzie that's funny about the Volvo perception in Australia... basic negative stereotype here is it's old boxy design (fwiw, you don't have to have to head for shelter if you see me driving down the street).

As to the B Class, while it was not previously sold in the U.S. (and I'd guess not in Australia either), Mercedes introduced it in 2005, and has sold roughly 100,000 per year the past few years in Europe, or about 1/6 of Mercedes total European sales. So while I agree with you it is not an exciting looking car, I think it's fair to say the market at least in Europe has not found it off the mark from the Mercedes brand. I'm not sure what you have to pay to get the range extending feature (one article I read indicated it's an option), but if it's a few thousand dollars or less, I think a 100 mile range Mercedes has some potential- more than the similarly priced i3 anyhow.

here's annual European sales data on the B Class:

Mercedes-Benz B-Class European sales figures

 

[Auzie]

There is no range extender, my understanding is that it is pure bev. So it might be difficult to sell bev with 100 miles max range, with no 'wow' effect to smooth the pain of low range.

 

[SteveG3]

There is no range extender, my understanding is that it is pure bev. So it might be difficult to sell bev with 100 miles max range, with no 'wow' effect to smooth the pain of low range.

it is a pure EV, no range extender. I would have done better writing "range mode" than range extending. from what I've read getting the car with range mode available will be offered as an option at a price as yet undisclosed. fwiw, that article suggested a 20-30% improvement in range mode which would have brought the range to roughly 100-110 miles. it will be interesting to see how this car and the i3 do. I just happen to think this Mercedes with a Tesla connection beats what's already out there- odd looking cars with 20-30% less range (though I guess Ford has one that looks like a regular Focus).

 

[Auzie]

i3 is a hybrid, max range 160 - 180 miles, no range anxiety. That might be a perceived advantage over Merc bev with 100 miles range.

 

[jerry33]

Reasoning that baffles my mind, quote from the article: “A lot of Silicon Valley people don’t want to scream, ‘Hey, I’m driving an electric car,’ ” Mark A. Webster, Mercedes-Benz USA’s general manager for e-mobility, said as we spun through Palo Alto. “They care about the environment, but they don’t have to brag about their sustainability consciousness.”For all the excesses of this high-flying capital of software, not every well-heeled executive wants a big, flashy and fast electric flagship or a small futuristic E.V. When the B-Class electric goes on sale this summer in select states, mostly on the coasts, they will have a new choice.

The Model S hardly screams "I'm an electric car". At shows I have four signs that say it's electric (two of which are on the windshield with big letters) and people still ask if it is an electric car. I'd seriously look into the B Class for Denise if it had 150 miles. While 85 would just do it for her, there wouldn't be any margin for error--doing a range charge daily isn't the answer.

 

[SteveG3]

i3 is a hybrid, max range 160 - 180 miles, no range anxiety. That might be a perceived advantage over Merc bev with 100 miles range.

Auzie, as real world usage accumulates it will be interesting to see to what extent consumers find the i3 serves them like a hybrid with ~160 miles of range (or ~125 miles of range, see below) vs. a BEV with an emergency backup (fwiw, I realize it is not actually a hybrid drivetrain).

You could argue BMW has said mixed things about it functioning in a sense like a hybrid with near double the EV range, because their marketing on the website does not contradict that interpretation. Their global head of R&D, however, has publicly said the REX is to allow you to reach the next charging station, but it is not for daily use.

The problem, according to one review, is that the car's performance can be substantially compromised with the REX do to limited power (it maintains the battery at a 5% state of charge and as I understand it, operates in favor of maintaining charge over performance). The review described the car as having more like 40-50 miles range extension at highway speeds and slowing to 44 mpg while driving up an incline on the highway, though returning to normal speeds when the road leveled out.


here's an article discussing the review of the REX's performance:

First Review In: 2014 BMW i3 Range Extender Performance Limited

here's what BMW's U.S. website says about the REX

"Introducing the BMW i3 with Range Extender—it approximately doubles your electric driving range to eliminate range anxiety, allowing you to breathe a little easier on drives where charging stations are not readily available. With this vehicle's gas-powered, two cylinder engine, electricity is generated to maintain the charge of the lithium ion battery at an approximate 5% level."

BMW i3 with Range Extender - Model Highlights - BMW North America

and here are some excerpts from the article quoting BMW's Global R&D head Herbert Diess:

"The range extender is not intended for daily use. It's for situations when the driver needs to extend the range of the vehicle to reach the next charging station. Therefore, the i3 probably won't be the choice for customers with a need for an extended range."

Diess suggests that a plug-in hybrid is "a more suitable solution" for those customers who frequently need a car with range beyond that offered by the i3's battery pack.

Nonetheless, Diess says that BMW doesn't think the range extender will be needed by a "substantial share" of i3 buyers:
It is more of an issue for those who have not yet had a chance to use an electric car. After a few days, they usually discover that a base range of [100 miles] is sufficient to limit recharging to about two times a week. In most cases where people first think they need a range extender, it actually never is used.
Diess was quoted elsewhere as saying that while the take rate for the ReX might initially be as high as 50 percent, BMW expected it to stabilize at around one-fifth of all i3s sold.


http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082814_bmw-i3-electric-car-rex-range-extender-not-for-daily-use/page-2

 

[Robert.Boston]

Moderator's Note: Discussion about GM's ignition switch recall and how corporate punishments should be meted out is now found at GM Recalls and Culpability

 

[DaveT]

Hon Hai (aka Foxconn) Promises $15,000 Electric Vehicle,
Hon Hai Promises $15,000 Electric Vehicle

I think we could be seeing the birth of a legitimate global auto maker, possibly a top 5 global auto maker in 15 years.

 

[uselesslogin]

Certainly a strong possibility. There are some ICE makers that will just have to go bankrupt while new electric makers take over. It will be very interesting to compare the auto industry 15 years from now to the auto industry of today.

 

[The Blue Owl]

Certainly a strong possibility. There are some ICE makers that will just have to go bankrupt while new electric makers take over. It will be very interesting to compare the auto industry 15 years from now to the auto industry of today.

I bet it will be as different from the auto industry today as the cell phone industry is compared to 2007.

 

[RobStark]

I bet it will be as different from the auto industry today as the cell phone industry is compared to 2007.

The barriers to entry in the automobile industry are far higher than the cell phone industry.

I have no doubts there will be laggards( Fiat Chrysler) that will need to go bankrupt to light a fire under the feet of the other legacy automakers but I don't see a change as dramatic as cell phones.

 

[rcc]

Meh - a $15K car has to be a city car. That could admittedly work in densely populated Asian cities with air pollution concerns. But if city cars were that popular, I would think that LEAFs would be selling well in Asia.

Which they're not. Wikipedia says the LEAF sold 13K cars in Japan in 2013 which seems pretty underwhelming to me.

 

[austinEV]

You could do a small city car for $15k. Consider that a cheap coup can be as low as 12k, like a Nissan Versa: Top 10 Least Expensive Coupes, Affordable Small Cars | Autobytel.com

Do a 20kwH battery for $5k ($200/kwh). It raises the price 5k minus the cost of the cheap ICE drivetrain. You get a range of what, 50 miles?

In fact, it's the small city car market I think TM is eager to cede but in the end it is the easiest to pull off. TM could do a cool small, affordable, modest range (city range only) car, and make 4 of them for every model S they would have sold. The reason they do not (aside from image/branding) is that TM is frankly not cost efficient at making the car-not-including-the-battery, a problem foxconn will share.

 

[The Blue Owl]

The barriers to entry in the automobile industry are far higher than the cell phone industry.

That's true, but the barriers to exit are even higher. We'll see how many existing manufacturers will be able to make the transition from ICE to electric. My prediction is that half of them will disappear. Some will go bankrupt, and others will be absorbed by the winners.

 

[DaveT]

LG Chem To Supply 200 Mile Batteries In 2016; But To Whom?

 

[DaveT]

Baidu Working On Partial Self-Drive Cars

 

[SebastianR]

Baidu Working On Partial Self-Drive Cars

When I read this, I'm thinking this looks more like a Google vs. Baidu kind of thing. What would be really interesting to learn is where the actual car (e.g. Foxconn??) in the Baidu development is coming from: With the most recent policy changes in China, I'm waiting to hear who is going to provide electric cars to China and if these will be a China-only car maker or if they consider exports...