Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[RobStark]

"In fact, Ford’s anticipates its combined global BEV production will surpass 600,000 units per year in the next 24 months."


So... by 2024 they hope to make about 50% less EVs than Tesla made last year.... and only about 20% more than Tesla made 2 years before their announcement.

"competition"

If they achieve those numbers that it roughly an order of magnitude increase in 2 years.

IMO that is fantastic.

Even if it is a quarter of Tesla's global production by that time.

Although my guess is Ford will also be producing some BEVs in Europe too.

 

[Knightshade]

If they achieve those numbers that it roughly an order of magnitude increase in 2 years.

As a famous Spartan once said.... If.


To my knowledge there's an EV battery shortage, not surplus. So I'm certainly curious where they plan to get the batteries for having repeatedly "doubled" their production targets from.

You'd think if they had an actual plan instead of just "a press release" it would mention that.

 

[RobStark]

As a famous Spartan once said.... If.


To my knowledge there's an EV battery shortage, not surplus. So I'm certainly curious where they plan to get the batteries for having repeatedly "doubled" their production targets from.

You'd think if they had an actual plan instead of just "a press release" it would mention that.

IF you have been following Ford news maybe you would know more about their plans.

Instead of just mocking. Which just engenders hatred of Tesla and Tesla fans from everyone else.

 

[Knightshade]

IF you have been following Ford news maybe you would know more about their plans.

Instead of just mocking. Which just engenders hatred of Tesla and Tesla fans from everyone else.

I'm not mocking.

Nor lacking in following the news.

I've physically been at the battery plant location in Commerce GA that SK is building that Ford has said will supply the lighting (and is ALSO supplying VW for the ID4). Have you?

It didn't magically double in size, twice, in the last 3 months while Ford has somehow been doubling their press release output.


Note the ADDITIONAL SK plants Ford is partnering on aren't expected to be in production until, at best, 2025

Hence why I find any claims they're "doubling" anything, let alone doubling then doubling again by 2024 require some actual evidence.

Where are the 2x, now 4x, batteries coming from?

 

[diamond.g]

I'm not mocking.

Nor lacking in following the news.

I've physically been at the battery plant location in Commerce GA that SK is building that Ford has said will supply the lighting (and is ALSO supplying VW for the ID4). Have you?

It didn't magically double in size, twice, in the last 3 months while Ford has somehow been doubling their press release output.


Note the ADDITIONAL SK plants Ford is partnering on aren't expected to be in production until, at best, 2025

Hence why I find any claims they're "doubling" anything, let alone doubling then doubling again by 2024 require some actual evidence.

Where are the 2x, now 4x, batteries coming from?

Do they have to get them all in the US? They could get some from BYD and CATL or LG as well (asumming the others can make the chemistry Ford needs) right?

 

[Knightshade]

Do they have to get them all in the US? They could get some from BYD and CATL or LG as well (asumming the others can make the chemistry Ford needs) right?

COULD they? Sure.

Which of those companies magically came up with a ton of spare battery capacity, in a market where every EV maker is desperate for all the cells they can get, and in the form Ford needs, and didn't tell anyone about it?

Because Ford sure isn't saying where those cells are coming from. Which you'd think they would be if they had a real answer today.

At least when Ford announced they were bumping Mach E production they did explain where those cells were coming from... by cancelling other planned EV rollouts... (the explorer and aviator- which were originally gonna be built in the same place as the Mach E... but are now going to be produced "later" and "somewhere TBD"


In fact as recently as 3 weeks ago Fords CEO said they were already battery constrained on the F-150 and that's why they stopped taking reservations.

The issue is batteries. That’s what we have to solve.

Now they're doubling output (again)

Did they find some more under a couch or something?

 

[mongo]

A question for the group:
Does the title of this thread create an inherent adversarial/ bias to the posts? i.e. assuming any OEM referred to is 'truely competition' thus prompting push back on why they are not rather than discussion of their development progress?
If so, might changing it to something like "Non-Tesla BEV Developments" be advantageous?

 

[samppa]

Mercedes-Benz unveils 1,000 km-per-charge VISION EQXX prototype

Mercedes-Benz on Monday took the wraps off its battery-powered VISION EQXX prototype which it says will have a range of more than 1,000 kilometres (km) per charge, taking a big stride in its electric vehicle (EV) ambitions.

www.reuters.com

Behold true competition from Daimler, their coming vision will consume less than 10kwh/100kms.. and battery will have energy density of 400 wh per litre.

What the h does that even mean? Energy density is measured per kg, what does volume have to do with anything?

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

A question for the group:
Does the title of this thread create an inherent adversarial/ bias to the posts? i.e. assuming any OEM referred to is 'truely competition' thus prompting push back on why they are not rather than discussion of their development progress?
If so, might changing it to something like "Non-Tesla BEV Developments" be advantageous?

My reading is as intended with your proposed title change. This thread is about their development. But that's just my opinion. *shrug*

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

Mercedes-Benz unveils 1,000 km-per-charge VISION EQXX prototype

Mercedes-Benz on Monday took the wraps off its battery-powered VISION EQXX prototype which it says will have a range of more than 1,000 kilometres (km) per charge, taking a big stride in its electric vehicle (EV) ambitions.

www.reuters.com

Behold true competition from Daimler, their coming vision will consume less than 10kwh/100kms.. and battery will have energy density of 400 wh per litre.

What the h does that even mean? Energy density is measured per kg, what does volume have to do with anything?

"Energy density" could mean either "volumetric energy density" (what MB was referring to) or "gravimetric energy density" (what you were expecting).

 

[Knightshade]

BTW remember when you insisted GM was "already" making HUMMERs?

GM's Hummer EV has 329-mile range, 'Edition 1' deliveries start in December

Hummer EV deliveries are imminent, slated to begin next month as confirmed today by GMC brand chief Duncan Aldred. While...

electrek.co

So when I mentioned GM was currently producing zero EVs- that was accurate.

In a few days they'll begin to produce a tiny handful of >100k ones. Maybe sometime next year they'll produce another one (if/when they restart Bolt, or start on the Lyriq). Still pretty damn distance from their claim of 22 new EVs by 2023.

Just to close off the discussion RobStark and I had on if GM was actually making production Hummers last month (they were not, per GM, as of the date of the discussion)-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1478428520183484423

They did manage to finish and deliver... one. Total.

 

[Accident]

Mercedes-Benz unveils 1,000 km-per-charge VISION EQXX prototype

Mercedes-Benz on Monday took the wraps off its battery-powered VISION EQXX prototype which it says will have a range of more than 1,000 kilometres (km) per charge, taking a big stride in its electric vehicle (EV) ambitions.

www.reuters.com

Behold true competition from Daimler, their coming vision will consume less than 10kwh/100kms.. and battery will have energy density of 400 wh per litre.

What the h does that even mean? Energy density is measured per kg, what does volume have to do with anything?

Here's a summary from reddit:

• Specs: <100kWh usable battery, >900V system voltage, >6mi/kWh energy consumption, 0.17 cd value, 110in wheelbase, ~3858lbs gross vehicle weight, > 620mi range on a single charge
• The electric drivetrain outputs 150kW (201 horsepower) and achieves 95% efficiency from the battery energy to the wheels. (The power and efficiency numbers point to use of an axial flux motor, as developed by YASA which was acquired by MB.)
• The battery has an energy density close to 400 Wh/l. It has almost the same amount of energy as the EQS but is half the size and 30% lighter, so it can fit into a compact car.
• "The substantial increase in energy density comes in part from significant progress in the chemistry of the anodes. Their higher silicon content and advanced composition mean they can hold considerably more energy than commonly used anodes. Another feature that contributed to the impressive energy density is the high level of integration in the battery pack. This platform, developed jointly by Mercedes-Benz R&D and HPP, created more room for cells and helped reduce the overall weight. The separate compartment for the electrical and electronic (EE) components, called the OneBox, likewise made more room for cells, with added benefits for installation and removal. The OneBox also incorporates novel safety devices with energy efficient operations that consume significantly less energy than the equivalent component in a production EV."
• "Several more aspects of the battery design add to its exceptional efficiency. For instance, its lightweight lid was engineered jointly by Mercedes-AMG HPP and their chassis partners at Mercedes-Grand Prix. The lid is made from a unique, sustainable composite material derived from sugar-cane waste, reinforced with carbon fiber, as used in Formula 1. The battery also features active cell balancing, which means drawing the energy evenly from the cells while the car is driving – in effect, giving it greater stamina. Overall, the battery weighs around 1,091 lbs, including the OneBox."
• "The cooling plate is installed in the vehicle floor, enabling it to take advantage of the air flowing along the underside of the VISION EQXX. This is the most aerodynamically efficient way of keeping the electric drive unit cool under normal conditions, allowing the vehicle to gain about 20 kilometers (12 miles) of range in the most aerodynamic mode."
• The electric system that powers many of the ancillaries in the VISION EQXX draws additional energy from 117 solar cells on the roof. It was developed in collaboration with the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE – Europe's largest solar energy research institute. The net result of reducing the energy drain on the high-voltage system is an increase in range. On a single day and under ideal conditions, this can add up to 25 km (15 miles) of range on long-distance journeys. The solar energy is stored in a lightweight lithium-iron-phosphate battery, which supplies a climate blower, the lights, the infotainment system and other ancillaries."
• There is an active rear diffuser that deploys at higher speeds. It also had to weigh next-to-nothing and instantly retract in event of a rear-ender.
• "The VISION EQXX has a number of less visually obvious, but equally important, active and passive aerodynamic details, such as its small frontal area. It is actually less than that of today's CLA or even the vehicles from smart. And how many would notice that the rear track is 2 inches less than at the front?"
• "Currently the largest aluminum structural casting at Mercedes-Benz, BIONEQXX is the major structural component at the rear end of the VISION EQXX – the rear floor. The development engineers sought to use material only where necessary for structural function, i.e. where loads are exerted. Where there is no load there is no need for material. The resulting one-part casting has a web-like appearance with gaps where there is no need for structural elements." Gaps are filled with UBQ material, a plastic substitute made from landfill materials. "The resulting part indicates that this innovative engineering approach has the potential to achieve weight savings of between 15 and 20% compared to a conventionally produced component."
• Large aluminum castings with a web-like appearance are also used in the damper domes which accommodate the suspension components at the front of the car. They contribute to keeping weight to a minimum, saving around 9 lbs compared with conventional pressed domes.
• The MS1500 ultra-high strength martensitic has exceptional strength that offers excellent occupant protection in the event of a crash, while keeping weight to a minimum.
• "The doors of the VISION EQXX are made from a hybrid of CFRP and GFRP (carbon- and glass-fiber reinforced plastics) components with aluminum reinforcements. As well as the weight benefits, this design also achieves a careful balance of stiffness and ductility in the event of a crash. Meanwhile, a new polyamide foam reinforces the lower edge of the door and optimizes energy absorption in a side-on collision."
• "On the chassis, aluminum brake discs reduce the mass significantly compared with cast steel discs. As well as being completely corrosion-free, this brake system designed by Mercedes-Benz Advanced Engineering also reduces brake dust emissions by up to 90% thanks to an innovative coating. Meanwhile, new advanced glass-fiber-reinforced plastic springs developed in partnership with Rheinmetall Automotive remove further weight compared with conventional coil springs."
• The concept was developed in only 18 months through strong simulation tools and agile collaborative processes.

 

[JRP3]

A question for the group:
Does the title of this thread create an inherent adversarial/ bias to the posts? i.e. assuming any OEM referred to is 'truely competition' thus prompting push back on why they are not rather than discussion of their development progress?
If so, might changing it to something like "Non-Tesla BEV Developments" be advantageous?

Will that stop the media from referring to every other EV as a "Tesla killer"?

 

[JRP3]

Mercedes-Benz unveils 1,000 km-per-charge VISION EQXX prototype

Mercedes-Benz on Monday took the wraps off its battery-powered VISION EQXX prototype which it says will have a range of more than 1,000 kilometres (km) per charge, taking a big stride in its electric vehicle (EV) ambitions.

www.reuters.com

Behold true competition from Daimler, their coming vision will consume less than 10kwh/100kms.. and battery will have energy density of 400 wh per litre.

What the h does that even mean? Energy density is measured per kg, what does volume have to do with anything?

Technically Energy Density is volumetric, Wh/L, and Specific Energy is gravimetric, Wh/kg. Most people don't know the difference. Personally I think Wh/kg is more important.

 

[Knightshade]

Mercedes-Benz unveils 1,000 km-per-charge VISION EQXX prototype

Mercedes-Benz on Monday took the wraps off its battery-powered VISION EQXX prototype which it says will have a range of more than 1,000 kilometres (km) per charge, taking a big stride in its electric vehicle (EV) ambitions.

www.reuters.com

Behold true competition from Daimler

Prototypes with no real production intent or date are not competition of course.

From the link

Some components of the prototype would be available in Mercedes-Benz vehicles within two to three years, Schaefer said. However, the CTO declined to specify when the 1,000 km-range battery would be market-ready.

I think I once heard something about prototypes being easy...

 

[wdolson]

Technically Energy Density is volumetric, Wh/L, and Specific Energy is gravimetric, Wh/kg. Most people don't know the difference. Personally I think Wh/kg is more important.

I think both are important. Wh/L affects how big the pack is in physical size. A dense Wh/L pack can pack a lot of capacity in a smaller car. Wh/Kg is a good measure for the weight of the car. High Wh/Kg allows to make cars lighter which makes for better energy efficiency.

 

[Fred42]

Silverado RST available fall 2023. "Available" 400 mile range. Chevy web site doesn't mention price.

Site Maintenance

 

[diamond.g]

Silverado RST available fall 2023. "Available" 400 mile range. Chevy web site doesn't mention price.

Site Maintenance

Base (WT I guess) starts at 39900.

 

[Knightshade]

Base (WT I guess) starts at 39900.

Yup, but not for probably at least 2-3 more years.

The $105,000 "first edition" one is fall 2023, with the cheap stuff coming "after production ramps"

 

[diamond.g]

Yup, but not for probably at least 2-3 more years.

The $105,000 "first edition" one is fall 2023, with the cheap stuff coming "after production ramps"

Yeah that "400" mile 200kWh battery isn't cheap...