Tesla CCS fast charging adapter?

[RDoc]

Apologies for reviving an old(ish) thread.

With the announcement recently that European Model S/X owners will be able to pick up a CCS adapter soon, it's worth asking the question again. Can US owners expect a CCS adapter sooner or later for their S/X's?

With Electrify America and all other fast chargers building out a network of urban and rural fast chargers, it's just a matter of time before these chargers catch up and surpass the Supercharger network in numbers. CCS seems like it will be the winning standard sooner or later as well. It would be great to be able to tap into the CCS chargers in a pinch or for added flexibility of stops/routes.

Well, the future is a long time, but in the immediate future, say 5 years, and likely more, cars with Tesla plugs are going to outnumber ones with CCS plugs by a very large number. Moreover, the CCS stations will likely be far less in number and usefulness than Superchargers since no one except EA is actually building a network of any size and their planned buildout is less than Tesla's is today.

So yes, maybe CCS will be the dominant standard someday, but that's a long way off at best, and who knows? There's always another standard just around the corner.

 

[Araman0]

Ignoring which charging standard will be more popular in x years, I'm still curious if Tesla's European CCS adapter announcement means increases the likelihood of an eventual American ccs adapter. (The European CCS adapter would not work in the US).

It would be nice to have more stopping/charging options when making long distance trips, and not have to rely solely on the Supercharger network which could be spaced out 100 miles or more in some areas. (I'm hesitant to buy a Chademo adapter as that standard seems like it will eventually go away, and would much rather pick up a CCS adapter.)

 

[Canuck]

With Electrify America and all other fast chargers building out a network of urban and rural fast chargers, it's just a matter of time before these chargers catch up and surpass the Supercharger network in numbers.

Yes, it's also just "a matter of time" until the sun burns out. I'll believe it when I see it, just like this...

VW CEO says they’ll have ‘EVs as good as Tesla’s for half the price by 2020’

I sure hope so, but I'm not holding my breath and it's just a matter of time until I run out time so I need to think the foreseeable future here -- not pipe dreams.

As to the foreseeable future, I bought a Chademo adapter right when it was made available years ago that will be useful for me for about another year -- until the #3 highway is built out with superchargers. Having relied on public chargers, and especially high powered ones, it's nerve racking how often they are out of order, occupied, or iced -- not fun on travels. All my adaptors are going by the wayside -- and I have a ton, not to mention my extension cords. I don't want another one. But it would be good to get the Chademo working with my 3 before it becomes obsolete to me because of Tesla's actions, while no one else has really stepped up to the plate other than to ground out -- and badly at that.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yes, it's also just "a matter of time" until the sun burns out. I'll believe it when I see it, just like this...

VW CEO says they’ll have ‘EVs as good as Tesla’s for half the price by 2020’

I think the important part of that is for half of Tesla's cost of what/when? The Model S at launch? The Model 3 as it is currently sold? Or half the price of the Model 3 that Tesla will be selling in 2020? But I don't think it really matters it will never happen.

 

[Naonak]

As probably the heaviest CHADeMo user on the forum, I can say I've never run into a situation where there was only a CCS available that didn't also have a CHADeMo and thus have never needed a CCS adapter.

There just isn't much use for a CCS adapter in the US now or in the immediate future, so I don't see Tesla putting in any significant development resources (and it would require a lot more resources than a CHADeMo adapter) into this. If it's just an easy copy from the EU version, then maybe... but if it isn't, then it won't happen any time soon.

 

[reddy]

As probably the heaviest CHADeMo user on the forum, I can say I've never run into a situation where there was only a CCS available that didn't also have a CHADeMo and thus have never needed a CCS adapter.

There just isn't much use for a CCS adapter in the US now or in the immediate future, so I don't see Tesla putting in any significant development resources (and it would require a lot more resources than a CHADeMo adapter) into this. If it's just an easy copy from the EU version, then maybe... but if it isn't, then it won't happen any time soon.

I also have, and use, the CHADeMo adapter. However if I had my choice of CCS vs CHADeMo, I would pick CCS in a heartbeat.

Our part of the world is getting populated with EA chargers, and the CCS can deliver 350 kW vs 50 (on a good day) for CHADeMo.

Of course I could only digest 120kw, but since we are billed by EA by MINUTE, not kWh, I would prefer to get the full 120kW rather than 50.

 

[miimura]

As probably the heaviest CHADeMo user on the forum, I can say I've never run into a situation where there was only a CCS available that didn't also have a CHADeMo and thus have never needed a CCS adapter.

There just isn't much use for a CCS adapter in the US now or in the immediate future, so I don't see Tesla putting in any significant development resources (and it would require a lot more resources than a CHADeMo adapter) into this. If it's just an easy copy from the EU version, then maybe... but if it isn't, then it won't happen any time soon.

Would your opinion about the desirability of a CCS adapter change if it supported 250 amps while the CHAdeMO adapter continued to support only 125 amps? That would be approximately 90kW vs. 45kW.

 

[Naonak]

If there were stations that supported it, yes I would absolutely be all for that. However, none of the stations that i'm aware of in the US support more than 45kw, at least none near me. So if the adapter supports it, but none of the stations do, it doesn't really have any benefit, which is where I think Teslas thinking is at the moment as well.

 

[Jeff N]

If there were stations that supported it, yes I would absolutely be all for that. However, none of the stations that i'm aware of in the US support more than 45kw, at least none near me. So if the adapter supports it, but none of the stations do, it doesn't really have any benefit, which is where I think Teslas thinking is at the moment as well.

There are over 45 CCS stations open the US now that have 4 or more charging spaces with each space supporting 350A at up to 500V at up to 150 kW output. I just charged at one last night in a Bolt EV although only at up to 55 kW (car’s limit).

Your profile says you are in Kansas. Three of those 45+ open locations are in Hays, Colby, and Witchita in Kansas.

You can find the open Electrify America stations (as well the ones with permits that are under construction) at Locate a charger | Electrify America

Here’s a snapshot of the area around Kansas in that map:

All of the gray locations and many more not yet shown on the map are allegedly going to be finished and open within 6 months from now (300 highway locations plus almost 200 community DC spots in 17 metro areas). The highway sites are all 150+ kW CCS and many of the community sites will be although some will be 50 kW.

 

[Cosmacelf]

It will be interesting indeed to see if Electrify America has allocated money to repair and maintain these sites...

 

[Jeff N]

It will be interesting indeed to see if Electrify America has allocated money to repair and maintain these sites...

They have. They claim is that they have maintenance and repair contracts that will cover at least the 10-year period of the consent agreement (2017-2027) that requires equipment to be operational within 72 hours of it being reported as broken.

 

[ytwytw]

Need CCS adapter to use those Electrify America’s 150kwh station

They are expensive (over $20/h in Buffalo, NY)

 

[KJD]

Since they have a ChaDemo adapter, will there be one for CCS? Just curious.

Now that the European Superchargers have CCS and Tesla connectors both, it would appear that Tesla could very easily build an adapter if they wanted to. They already have the software to do the CCS protocol.

 

[jbcarioca]

Why is such an adapter impossible to build? ...
Or is this one of those patent and legal things that makes it not pemissible? Rather than actually not possible.

You have it. Building an adapter is not a large problem. CCS does have unique authorization protocols but those are published, are not especially difficult and Tesla is a member of CharIN, the parent of teh CCS standard so consider the technical side to be easier than CHAdeMO (BTW, works now for S and X, but not for Roadster and 3). The primary problem is that the equipment suppliers (e.g. Siemens and Bosch) and the public utilities (most of the major Europeans) are preoccupied with higher and higher voltages and amperages, plus have already made CCS the only official EU standard. Those are not enthused about any kind of adapter; they want OEM solutions.

If there were a political accommodation of some sort an adapter might be possible. Don't hold your breath.

 

[Snowstorm]

Unless each charging entity is uniquely identified by some cryptographically strong method, I don’t see why someone (even if not Tesla) would not make a Tesla CCS adapter, would have been seeing them pop up on aliexpress

 

[jbcarioca]

Unless each charging entity is uniquely identified by some cryptographically strong method, I don’t see why someone (even if not Tesla) would not make a Tesla CCS adapter, would have been seeing them pop up on aliexpress

For your answer check out the CharIN site, which has access to all the technical reasons why “[you] don’t see why not”. Specifically check out the CharIN site for charging authorization standards. Your “Unless..” is fairly close to the answer to your question.

In sum, theoretically someone modestly clever could hack the system for CCS access. However, if such a thing did happen it would be almost instantaneously detected and negated. For those who know currently extant credit card fraud control,systems, the CCS one is a close analogue. A single charging event might well happen, but it is seriously improbable that a second event would succeed. In sum, an unauthorized CCS adapter would be fairly expensive and would not be successful.

As has been noted numerous times, it is quite likely that some CCS adapters will be approved at some time to permit backwards compatibility for BEV not equipped with CCS originally. They almost certainly will have serious amperage limits, say around 100 amps as a probable upper limit. In addition, more expensive and/or newer BEV not equipped with CCS initially could be retrofitted. The latter is almost a certainty. Think present Tesla China-market S and X as examples of how that might be done.

 

[Jeff N]

For your answer check out the CharIN site, which has access to all the technical reasons why “[you] don’t see why not”. Specifically check out the CharIN site for charging authorization standards. Your “Unless..” is fairly close to the answer to your question.

Those mechanisms are for “Plug and Charge” which is optional. That wouldn’t prevent someone from making a CCS adapter.

 

[jbcarioca]

Those mechanisms are for “Plug and Charge” which is optional. That wouldn’t prevent someone from making a CCS adapter.

No, assuming that it would be acceptable to use a private CCS facility. The entire point of an adapter is to permit use in public charging stations., which do use authorization protocols. Optional, yes, but required to permit public for-pay charging stations. Thinking of NA, most existing CCS stations are dual with CHAdeMO plugs also, and a CHAdeMO adapter already exists, even with a M3 part number which should be enabled fairly soon. Thus Imstand by my earlier statements.

 

[Jeff N]

Optional, yes, but required to permit public for-pay charging stations.

Huh? I’m not aware of any public for-pay charging stations that require cryptographic authentication of the vehicle over CCS. I very much doubt any will require this in the future since there will be many cars on the road which do not have any such credentials installed in them.

There will be ways of authenticating paying “out of band” of the CCS connection such as with a credit card or RFID reader or with a smartphone app for cars/adapters that cannot authenticate themselves.

 

[miimura]

I don't think there are any existing CCS stations that REQUIRE Plug and Charge authentication and don't have a payment or authentication system on the screen of the charging station. The important and mandatory parts of the standard revolve around communicating the amount of current the car wants from the station. If the car doesn't send an update every X milliseconds, the charger will abort. I don't think any of that stuff is encrypted.