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Tesla Charging options for 2012-15

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by malcolm, Apr 27, 2011.

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Tesla on-board charging sockets

  1. The Improved Tesla Connector (ITC)+ a range of adaptors

    19.0%
  2. A more generic single-phase socket + the ITC + fewer adaptors

    19.0%
  3. A more generic three-phase socket +the ITC + fewer adaptors

    38.1%
  4. BOTH a single-phase AND three-phase sockets + the ITC + a minimum number of adaptors

    38.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    #1 malcolm, Apr 27, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2011
    Tesla have worked long and hard to develop a running platform which will carry the company through vehicle development for the next five to ten years. They are pushing new designs which increase the luggage space available in a particular vehicle class. Equally they have worked hard to reduce the perception of range anxiety by producing the 300 mile pack in time for the launch of Model S.

    There just remains the issue of compatible recharge connector anxiety. In other words - it is not the range of the battery pack which dictates the chosen route but the compatibility of tesla cars with the recharge connectors available en-route and at jouney's end.

    Essentially this poll is asking for your view about adaptor plugs/sockets - are you happy to carry them and use them?

    IMPORTANT: Let's assume that the Tesla Connector Socket will be MUCH better than the present Roadster connector - i.e. It will handle three-phase, single-phase and DC and that (as long as you buy the Tesla-approved ones) the adaptors will maintain the appropriate electrical capabilities safely.

    Which connector option(s) would you like to see on Model S (and possibly on future models).

    1. The Tesla Connector Socket only (plus a range of adaptors carried in the car)
    2. A more generic single-phase recharge socket alongside the Tesla Connector Socket (plus fewer adaptors)
    3. A more generic three-phase recharge socket alongside the Tesla Connector Socket (plus fewer adaptors)
    4. Both single-phase AND three-phase sockets AND the Tesla Connector (and hopefully a minimum number of adaptors)
    Please vote above. Thanks

    Finally, like range anxiety, is plug anxiety a lot of fuss over nothing and it is better to buy Tesla-branded adaptors for electrical safety/peace of mind? Obviously these will be more expensive than off-the-shelf/third party if Tesla designs and builds them to be lockable/theft and tamper-proof.
     
  2. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    The poll is too generic. It will be different in different markets.

    IEC also states that adapters shouldn't be used between car and EVSE, with what looks like an afterthought caveat that it's ok if the manufacturer provides an adapter. But designing them in from the outset goes against the spirit of this.
     
  3. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    #3 markwj, Apr 27, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2011
    I think different markets will have different requirements.

    Eg; in HK we have public chargers with CHAdeMO and 13amp type G sockets (currently only 1 with CHAdeMO and a few dozen spread around the territory with type G). In homes we have 3 phase up to 150+amp (each phase). We also have a tiny road system and very little need for away-from-home charging.
     
  4. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    i would assume, that 3-phase charging includes 1-phase charging as well? Therefore the Mennekes socket only would enough.
     
  5. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    But the basic question is "Where are you on the sockets vs adaptors spectrum"? The particular choice for a given territory will be someone else's headache.

    From the fragments we know, it would appear that maybe Tesla is going down the route of One Connector to Rule Them All (available with a range of attachments). Is that the right approach for potential users?

    I believe maybe Tesla's logic on this is that since the majority of car journeys will be within the orbit of the home then (assuming a Tesla HPC) extra sockets aren't necessary. Adaptors would be available to cover the longer/fewer trips away.
     
  6. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Those fragments are at best based on hearsay...
     
  7. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    The mennekes gives you up to 63A 400V 3-phase (maybe even 70A/480V) = 44kW (58kW) + 70A/277V single phase + 140A 500V (70kW) DC - Thats all what one may need. On this socket you can put any adapter you want.
     
  8. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Do you work for Mennekes?

    Yes we know it has all these advantages. Unfortunately there are already x thousand Chevy Volts and Nissan Leafs out there spreading the J1772 gospel. That means charging stations are being installed with that plug.

    And

    Except CHAdeMO, which doesn't share the same signalling as the others. Unfortunately it is making big inroads into just about every market.

    And 70kW isn't enough for the 45 minute charge time on Model S.


    Far better to have a charge port module with two options:

    1) CHAdeMO and J1772+DC for North America / Asia
    2) CHAdeMO and Mennekes+DC for Europe

    The PEM could be common and made to handle both, even if the three phase charging isn't used on American cars (it's still there for regen if they did that design).
     
  9. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    I agree, this is the sensible approach. J1772 will probably not be installed in many charge points in Europe, they will be Mennekes. Leafs and iMiEVs can charge from the Mennekes-chargepoints with a simple Mennekes-J1772 cable.

    If the Model S does not support 3-phase charging, J1772+CHAdeMO will be sufficient for european cars too. Just include the Mennekes-J1772 cable.

    For European markets, even a Tesla Connector will do if it is 3-phase, as long as a TMC-Mennekes cable is included with the car. This will not be a good solution for NA since the J1772 EVSEs have the cable attached permanently. In this regard (too) the Mennekes standard is better than J1772.

    Adapters should be avoided at all costs, very few buyers will want to deal with that mess.
     
  10. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    An excellent summary of several other threads that tend to leave me confused. Thank you.

    And I know this is all based on a bit of hearsay, but I'm sure that once the 300-mile range of model s becomes more widely known then the naysayers will try to make connector-anxiety the new range-anxiety.
     
  11. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    Model S without 3-phase charging is an absolute NOGO for me. I am not going to wait more then one day at 16A to charge my car. But JB Straubel promised me, that Model S will have 3-phase ability.
     
  12. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Same for me here, I'll cancel my reservation if it doesn't support 3-phase.

    I just bought a new house, the max I can get is 3x40A and I have to share this with me electric cooking and oven. During the day I can charge with 3x16A or maybe 3x24A and at night with 3x32A.

    3x32A is about 20kW of power, that will charge my 90kWh battery in 4.25 hours. If I was able to only charge with 1x32A it would take 15 hours to charge at 32A, 16A would take 30+ hours, that's no go.

    All the public charging stations in NL have 3x16A, sufficient for most of my daily use, I drive to Amsterdam (220km with a lot of highway), plug in and drive back a few hours later. That is no problem when I can charge with 3x16A (11kW), but with 1x16A it's almost a no-go.

    It's very simple: The European grid is three-phase. You are limited to somewhere around 40A (except for the UK) per phase in 99.99% of the situations. EVERYTHING here is 3-phase. The automatic door at our office has a three-phase motor for example. The compressors we use for paintball, also three-phase, electric heaters? Three-phase. The oven at the local bakery? Three phase!

    People should be able to install a cheap (<2k) charger at home, I'm really NOT going to spend 10k for a CHAdeMO charger at my home. That charger would then draw from my three-phases and feed DC to my car, no way.

    Once again, Europe has three phase everywhere, we can plug simple three-phase charging boxes everywhere, it's in every modern house.
     
  13. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    For me it does not matter so much. On roads trips we'll use DC fast chargers anyway, at home 230V 16A is enough as we do not drive much except for the trips to our cabin in the mountains. Our present car is frequently not used at all for several days at a time.
     
  14. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    I said this in another thread but here goes again:

    If the Model S has a Tesla uber socket that can support everything else on top of it that would be fine with me ...
    if and only if I can leave the J1772 extension on top of it and close the charge port door and drive away.
     
  15. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

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    Agreed richkae...I'd rather not have to tote around a bunch of adaptors, nor have to continuously have to be (finding) and attaching an adaptor...
     
  16. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    I'm pretty sure that engineers from Tesla read this board. Having said that, while enthusiast types like myself will live with a big spaghetti mess of adapters(roadster adapters), most of the public will not. If Tesla plans on selling anywhere near 20k worth of vehicles per year, they MUST offer 3 phase in Europe, and use either multiple charging sockets OR have easy to use small clamp on or push on adapters that can connect to a proprietary Tesla plug. A bunch of cable adapters will only HURT the company.
     
  17. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    I was at the Tesla Store opening in Milan, meeting there Elon Musk, JB Straubel and George Blankenship.
    His comments:
     
  18. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    :scared: I believe we have a new phenomenon: in addition to "Range Anxiety" we now have "Plug Anxiety" as well! :scared:
     
  19. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    #dpeilow no, i am not working for Mennekes, but desperately want 3-phase charging and Mennekes is going to be the standard in Europe. If i could, i would replace the current charger in my Roadster by the new Brusa 3-phase charger with 22kW(32A). It weights only 12kg and is liquid cooled.
     
  20. Banzai

    Banzai Model S sig #429 EU

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    My vote would also be 3 phase charging and preferably the Mennekes type 2 connector. And now we hope that Tesla people read this.
    People made pictures of the Model S Alpha built and they were in the factory, wasn't there anybody who saw how a Model S was charged?
     

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