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Tesla charging vs general EV charging

Discussion in 'Hong Kong' started by DITB, May 21, 2014.

  1. DITB

    DITB Charged.hk co-founder

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    I know there are multiple charging and chargers threads already.

    Yet discovering how much reluctance there is against installing chargers for the Tesla model S, or any EV for that sake, I think it is essential that we take the approach to attempt to install a more broad charging solution, in those critical places where it seems to be so difficult to convince owners/managers/boards to approve the installation.

    Installing in your own garage obviously doesn't matter, you can do what you want, within the legal and technical framework.

    Imagine there are three people asking, one wants a Tesla charger, another a BMW i3 charger while the last a Nissan Leaf charger! This is confusing to those in control of parking lots, who need to approve it.

    It will be much more convincing if whatever charger installed is some kind of generic charger which most or all EVs can accept (whether it's with an adaptor or not).

    Besides the CHAdeMO, which standards are widely acceptable amongst EVs? Preferably one which isn't TOO slow, so I am not thinking of a 13A here.

    Charging station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    IEC 62196 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    CHAdeMO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    SAE J1772 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Which ones of these does Tesla Model S support, and are there others I didn't mention which could be even better?
     
  2. ekwng

    ekwng Member

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  3. Skotty

    Skotty 2014 Model S P85

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    #3 Skotty, May 21, 2014
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
    J1772 is the way to go for residential condo/apartment charging. The only catch is how it's paid for, as there are a lot of options there.

    Some condos and apartments already have specific assigned parking spaces for the individual residences. They could pick out a subset of residences and install charging stations for them where the electricity is linked and billed to the residence the parking space is for. These would be "EV ready" residences that people could choose if they want to be able to use an EV. These residences could have a slightly higher price to offset charging station installation and maintenance and discourage non-EV interested residents from choosing them.

    Or they could just have several common charging spots and meter them and charge like current public charging stations do, though those usually end up being overpriced. So someone with some EV common sense needs to be setting the rates. Though then you end up with problems when the EV spaces are over capacity or ICEd.

    Another options for places with a lot of parking space would be to have a paid EV parking area with all EV parking spots. So free chargers or outlets but you pay to use the lot, kind of like a paid parking garage.
     
  4. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    For Hong Kong, I think you should follow the European way. Use IEC 62196-2 (Mennekes type) charging stations that do not have a captive cable. These already exist in Hong Kong and HK EV Power is one seller. The car owner uses their own cable to connect to the car. A Model S or a BYD would use a Male-Female Type-2 cable while a Leaf would use a Type-2 to Type-1 (J1772) cable. These are readily available on the market in EU.

    The response by Skotty above is appropriate for USA where J1772 is the only EV connector in common use. In US, everybody that doesn't have J1772 inlet has an adapter so they can use J1772 stations.
     
  5. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    100% in agreement.

    Also note that Tesla doesn't even sell a J1772 adaptor at the moment for their European style (which seems to be used everywhere now except North America) car socket.
     
  6. DITB

    DITB Charged.hk co-founder

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    Great input here.

    Is IEC 62196-2 (Mennekes type) already available as a charging point in HK, like with Octopus payment included?
     
  7. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    Due to the prevalence of J1772 charging stations in Australia, there is some discussion of Tesla making an adapter. They avoided the issue in Japan by using the Tesla proprietary vehicle inlet there. The prevalence of J1772 in Japan and the absence of 3-phase residential power probably combined to lead to that decision.

    - - - Updated - - -

    HK EV Power's public stations appear to use their own access fob or smartphone app. Most of the "semi-fast" stations that are this type appear to be free. Click the "Lists" tab at that site.
     
  8. DITB

    DITB Charged.hk co-founder

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    Yes, I have seen that list. There are two 13A spots close to where I live which is fine - I still have to pay their normal parking fee, and at 13A, it will be a lot of money, and time, to get a reasonable charge, even if the charge itself is free. Especially considering I have one free parking allocation much closer, though with no charging at the moment, not even 13A.
     
  9. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    Given your job, is the airport possible?
     
  10. Skotty

    Skotty 2014 Model S P85

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    I missed seeing your location. I was indeed just thinking USA. Internationally I think it's a more difficult question? And I don't know enough to really comment. A common standard for everyone on Earth would be nice, but I'm not sure I ever see it happening. I've been waiting for that to happen with language, but alas, there is still no one language I can learn that will allow me to communicate with everyone else on Earth.
     
  11. DITB

    DITB Charged.hk co-founder

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    Yeah, that's one option, but because of the parking fees, there might very well be days where my wife will come with me, just to take the car back.

    Also, if I plug in and I am gone for days, who will move my car to another spot to free up the charging?
     
  12. Lerxt

    Lerxt Member

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    The other issue is that staff parking is at car park 2 and there are currently no charge stations there. Given that it gets busy there I doubt they would block spots out for a unique system. Can't see how you could leave it plugged in overnight...
     
  13. DITB

    DITB Charged.hk co-founder

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    ... and the company don't have a single charging station, not even 13A (that I am aware of). Green and environmentally friendly? IC driving a Nissan Leaf for a week?

    I wrote them a while back and didn't even get a reply of any kind.

    I am counting on other options, and for my dedication to this car and the whole revolution of the automotive sector, I will find a way to charge, one way or the other. And I will for sure join the fight to help build the infrastructure.

    THIS is why I started this thread - I want to clarify which solution is the best for someone who owns a car park - to provide a fast and convenient charging solution, for most or all EVs, with a system in place for billing the use (for instance, octopus would be easy as everyone has an octopus, or can get one).

    I could imagine some solution where a charging station could support more spots, so when one car is done charging, the adjacent car could take over, without the first owner having to come back and unplug, or even move the car.

    This is why I think it's fine with selected locations of superchargers, wall chargers in private homes/parking spots, while public or semi-public charging spots should be flexible and usable amongst different brands.
     
  14. Lerxt

    Lerxt Member

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    There will be developments in this area as in 2015 all airport vehicles, other than trucks and tugs, are required to be electric. The major airlines have said they will wait and see where the technology goes before ordering cars. This may spur more charging options at the airport. I doubt the new charging facilities will be anything other than universal.
     
  15. DITB

    DITB Charged.hk co-founder

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    So you mean also land-side vehicles? I don't see why a tug couldn't be electric also. It could even be made to charge it's batteries from the ground power receptacles?
     
  16. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    That would be wonderful.

    My family's experience at the airport a month or so ago was not good. The shuttle bus (that goes on the airport tarmac between terminal buildings for the 5XX gates) was parked, engine running, doors open, fumes spewing into the cabin. Those short shuttle runs seem to be ideal for electrification, assuming the vehicles are available.
     
  17. Lerxt

    Lerxt Member

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    #17 Lerxt, May 22, 2014
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
    To be more accurate...

    From mid-2013, all new sedans in the airport’s restricted areawill be electric, and we will ban fossil fuel–powered sedansstarting in 2017. Where suitable equipment is available, we

    will replace existing diesel-powered light goods vehicles,buses, tractors and ground service equipment with electricmodels. If appropriate electric replacements are unavailable,we will use hybrid or liquefied petroleum gas–poweredmodels. To meet our projected needs to 2018, we will installmore charging points for electric vehicles in the airfield.


    I like the last line, but this refers to airside right now...
     
  18. CCT

    CCT Member

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    Good job by AA.
     
  19. DITB

    DITB Charged.hk co-founder

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    BYD is heavily into buses, literally speaking, I hope they will send electric buses to HKIA any time soon.

    A few days ago I was out running, some heavy trucks from the same company passed me, one of them was hardly visible for all the diesel smoke it expelled. As far as I know, it is usually nozzles, or broken piston rings, which causes smoke on diesels, as there is no "carburettor" or mixture chamber, but the diesel must be almost vaporised to give a reasonable clean burn.

    Where are the actions against that?

    I am sure such one single truck pollutes the same as 100 trucks with "normal" exhausts. It should be punishable by ... eh ... the same degree as it is to ride an electric pedal assist bike in Hong Kong, up to 6 months of jail for serial offenders. Clearly, he couldn't have helped to notice that he was making local "black fog" behind him when operating the vehicle? Or his colleagues behind him would have noticed and warned him.

    Having said that, even an optimum burning diesel still spews out lots of the tiniest particles which we just cannot see, and they attach to the inside of our lungs - for good. At least for me personally, I am in the least polluted region of Hong Kong, but that's not the solution, only egoistic reconciliation not applicable to most people in HK.

    OK, so way off topic to my original posting of this thread: Those airport charging spots are vital for operators in the airport to invest in EVs, so I'm all for it!

    Now for outside the airport - let's hope for a quick expansion of infrastructure in various levels of chargers - preferably from at least 40A and up, those 13A chargers are mainly worth something in long term parkings like ... the airport for instance! Yes, that's it, install a whole lot of minimum cost 13A chargers, mainly in the long term parking spots at the airport. If I am gone for 24 hours or more, that will be more than plenty charging (and I can park without "fearing" that I am blocking someone else' parking spot). They will also keep the car topped up, so even if gone for weeks or more, there won't be vampire drain or anything else to discharge the car. Is there a 13A charger one can use which cannot (easily) be stolen or tampered with, for the model S? I got it: Make the outlet so that you can back into the spot, connect the cable and push the car back to block access to the connector and cable.

    Sorry, this is me rambling on, getting ideas while I type - let me try to rephrase that in a separate answer to this thread
     
  20. DITB

    DITB Charged.hk co-founder

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    #20 DITB, May 23, 2014
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
    Different kinds of charging in HK

    How to accelerate a good charging infrastructure in Hong Kong - what should the aim be, where should officials and car park owners lay the focus?

    Essential to the success of mass-implementation of EVs in Hong Kong


    We need a portfolio of various charging solutions to suit different needs. Here are some thoughts on the matter

    Proprietary chargers (like TM Super-Charging Stations):

    It can be hard to find a place in HK to install chargers which only work for one brand of car, as discussed already. Shopping malls etc al are already reluctant to install charging spots (and block some parking spots for ICE cars). Super chargers are vital for Tesla Motors and the Model S (and X and the model formerly known as E) in Hong Kong, so let's just hope there will be at least 5 or so, spread out over HK (not just in the central areas).

    SCs in areas like

    1. Airport/Tung Chung (also for Macau/Zhuhai connection)
    2. Tuen Mun/Yuen Long
    3. Sai Kung/Clearwater Bay area
    4. Shatin/Ma On Shan
    5. Sheung Shui (also for going to and from the Mainland, whether HK or CN Tesla cars)
    6. TST
    7. HK Island.

    OK, that was 7, not 5, but those 7 areas would cover HK pretty well, also so no-one should have to cross a toll-bridge or drive into/through areas that are too congested. Mainly needed for tourists (mainland China?) as well as locals without charging facilities at work or at home.

    High Speed brand-independant chargers (non-proprietary, like CHAdeMO, J1772 AC/DC combo, IEC 62196-2 etc):

    High end shopping malls, supermarkets, short term parking lots - places you normally visit for a few hours, and then move on. Dining, movie, shopping, these would be the higher end, powerful chargers, 60A or more eventually.

    Workplace parking lots, for daily parking, possible where companies can charge up company paid vehicles (and save the time for going to the petrol station). These could be mid range chargers, 30A-50A

    Home charging, though this for the model S/X/mfkaE would be proprietary "wall chargers", depending on each owners needs and preferences.

    Slow chargers, 13A standard outlets (but with load- and thermal protection):

    For medium to long term parking, the airport being a great example, it's actually an advantage in several ways to have a slow charge:


    • Battery will definitely not be overloaded while charging
    • Cheap installation, both the charger and the cabling leading to it, so lots of "units" can be installed, using the cars own built in AC charger.
    • No rush to come back and unplug, as it can/will be installed in many parking bays
    • Since you are normally away for an extended period, as a minimum half a day, the slow charging rate shouldn't prevent a problem
    • Long term parking spots could even have a setting where they only charge at night, or other periods where the load on the grid is low, while shorter term spots could be 24/7.
    • Possibility to make "flexible ICE/EV" spots, so these spots maybe be used by ICE cars if other spots are taken (smart signs that change as needed, or just some "open spots" for either EV/ICE?)
    • Top-up of battery, avoiding vampire drain issues. Come back from vacation or long business trip, knowing your car is fully topped up (or as you have set the charger)

    Some measures should be taken to allow an EV owner to protect their cable from being stolen/damage/disconnected. Although I realise a model S cannot be moved once charging, there must be a way you can lock down the area of the charging port by simple mechanical blocking - so that it takes the key to the car to move it, so you can get to the cable. Any ideas here?

    For short term parking, i.e. at supermarkets etc, 13A chargers are close to useless - unless you can get a good deal on overnight/monthly parking and live or work close by


    I hope this was written in a more clear way.

    Thoughts, please, any other ideas or some things I didn't think of?

    -

    Even though this table here is for the EU market, and 220/230V AC, it seems quite clear that you can use the amperage (single phase) as a rule of thumb for km/hr charged:

    teslamodelscharging-eu_240_400V.jpg

    So for three-phase 16A, that is 3 x 16 = 48, and you get just over that in km/hr charging. I realise there is some confusion as to what the charger installation for the HK Model S cars will be.

    As for the "airport solution" then, if you were to arrive with a fully depleted battery, and using a 13A socket, and wanting a full charge up to 502 km (on 85kWh), you would only have to be gone a little over a day.

    Realistically, you would probably arrive with more than 100 km left, and choose to stop charging at 400 km, so even a good day trip would get you up and going.
     

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