Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"

[rxlawdude]

Many car companies have solved the auto highbeams problem without a bunch of cameras and without a NN computer. How can Tesla be struggling with this and at the same time say FSD is just around the corner? How can a vision-only system be better than vision + radar if vision-only needs the highbeams on as much as possible? Why would Tesla start delivering cars with AP nerfed and broken? Disabling AP makes cars much less safe so "an abundance of caution" cannot be the answer.

The "fail fast" approach used by SpaceX has produced spectacular results. I'm not sure this is the best approach to safety features on mass produced automobiles. Is it too much to ask to have auto-wipers, auto-highbeams, and basic cruise control that are on par with the rest of the industry? If Tesla does pull a rabbit out of their hat and fix all the problems in the coming weeks then maybe all of this will be forgotten.

You're new around here, and all your posts merely echo unverified speculation. Are you sure you really want to buy such a terrible vehicle?

 

[qdeathstar]

No source, just speculation. But why speculate that it's permanent?

Because cameras need light???

 

[gearchruncher]

You're new around here, and all your posts merely echo unverified speculation. Are you sure you really want to buy such a terrible vehicle?

And you're the one that asks people to "cite" their sources constantly, then upvotes someone saying their only source is speculation when it fits your wants.

You're dipping into attacking the person, not the argument again, something we have been reminded multiple times not to do.....

 

[gearchruncher]

How about IR?

The cameras do have "clear" pixels, which may be sensitive to IR light if it doesn't have an IR filter. Like a security camera can do at night.
However, the car does not have IR headlights, so it doesn't matter. The earth is not bathed in natural IR light at night, which is why security cameras need IR emitters.
Tesla could theoretically do this in the future, but not with a SW update to current cars.

 

[qdeathstar]

They removed it from the passenger seats of currently being delivered cars (3/Y at least) due to chip shortages.

Elon dismissed concerns by saying the logs showed it was rarely used but that explanation is intentionally dumb... with no passenger it's obviously not used, and for most folks who DO have a passenger it's most often the same passenger, who would set it initially, then leave it there... so it's not like they didn't use the support, they just didn't need to constantly adjust it (which is the only thing that would ever be logged)


FWIW- BMW allegedly also removed it from some of their cars due to the same shortages- but they INFORMED buyers and offered them a discount/credit for it, versus Tesla that didn't mention it to anybody apart from quietly removing "12 way adjustable" from the website and didn't comment until folks on Reddit noticed and began going nuts about it.

It’s probably rarely used because once you have it set to how you like it you don’t need to touch it again.

still, you can’t really act like Tesla is a bunch of cheap skates... they also gave the model y and model 3 heated steering wheels and laminated glass.

 

[gearchruncher]

they also gave the model y and model 3 heated steering wheels and laminated glass.

I think the issue here is the lack of transparency (they didn't tell people about a removal before purchase) and the ridiculous argument Elon made that "Logs showed almost no usage. Not worth cost/mass for everyone when almost never used." That argument could be made for so many elements on the vehicle, yet they are kept due to competitive pressures (like, umm, needing to add a heated steering wheel which is standard in the $50k segment).

BMW gave customers a $250 discount when they removed lumbar. Tesla is keeping the money and not telling customers. If Tesla had pre-announced this, it would not really be a big deal. The fact you need to find out from some internet post of someone that already bought the car to find it removed, or to notice the removal of "12 way" from the website between purchase and delivery is not customer centric. Elon's constant tweeting about things he is proud/excited about (like all the autonomy stuff), while not mentioning things like lumbar removal or NTHSA AEB ratings until a customer notices it and then giving rationale after the fact lets you know these are things he'd rather not discuss, even though having posted this ahead of time would have been a much better customer experience.

 

[BitJam]

You're new around here, and all your posts merely echo unverified speculation. Are you sure you really want to buy such a terrible vehicle?

Thank you for the warm welcome! The issues with auto-wipers and auto-highbeams seem to be fairly well documented. As is the issue of requiring auto-highbeams to use AP. Are these what you deem to be unverified speculation? I found the contrast between the reports of problems with auto-highbeams and auto-wipers versus claims of great strides coming soon in FSD very puzzling. I'm reminded of the adage:

In theory there's no difference between theory and practice but in practice there is.

My decision to accept delivery may well be affected by how Tesla handles these current issues. Ideally, Tesla will have all the problems fixed before I have to decide whether to take delivery or not. ISTM the best way for us to help reach that ideal is to point out the issues and point out the bad optics they create. Pretending these issues are not real and are only unverified speculation helps no one except possibly Tesla's competitors.

 

[bro1999]

It's a bit more than just a "regulatory thing" dude. The NHTSHA has *no* confidence that the safety features that relied on radar will work with an all-camera system, and there's TONS of industry reporting that those features, will, in fact, suffer greatly without radar (not to mention LIDAR)...particularly in low-light situations and particularly with Tesla's shitty 2015 cameras. This is a stunningly poor move by Tesla, and one that I suspect is due to something they're not telling us.

I'll say this...if Tesla's software stops using the radar that is already in my own Model Y, I'm selling it as a safety issue. There's already enough "camera blocked" or "degraded" messages now. Forget about not having radar in bad weather Holy sh*t, this is a bad move.

My wife's Volvo XC40 all-electric Recharge has Model-X like features and quality, with radar, for a Model Y price. Sure, the real-world range is only 208 miles, but it's got fast charging options.

Can you comment more about your experiences with the XC40? The efficiency numbers are horrifying, but what about everything else?

 

[texas_star_TM3]

Tesla looked at the logs and the data shows that the grocery hooks weren't being used often enough to justify them!

reminds me of my days in the airline industry (HQ...) and *every* cost cutting decision was spun as "passengers don't value / need / request it" ... seriously... no olives in the salad in domestic F ? passengers don't value them. No meal service on flights in domestic F for under 2 hrs ? passengers say they don't need food... lol .... when in the end it was just pain old cost cutting and justifying it by some directed "research"

 

[texas_star_TM3]

How about IR?

so the current TeslaVision cars have IR cameras ? because the older ones with radar certainly do not have IR ... Mercedes / Audi / BMW offer nice IR night vision systems in their top tier sedans but that system is $$$ .... i have a hard time seeing Tesla skimping on a $ radar chip and then instead built in $$$ night vision

 

[gearchruncher]

so the current TeslaVision cars have IR cameras ? because the older ones with radar certainly do not have IR

Nobody has notices any changes to the current non-radar cars except the removal of the radar, and you cannot hide a FLIR camera easily. It has to be outside the vehicle as it cannot see through glass.

 

[qdeathstar]

Nobody has notices any changes to the current non-radar cars except the removal of the radar, and you cannot hide a FLIR camera easily. It has to be outside the vehicle as it cannot see through glass.

You don’t need a flir camera though. Cheap ir leds can be used to give any camera “night” vision which would be a great improvement over nothing. That’s how ring cameras do their thing and they can see through glass.

I think you would see the IR leds though.

 

[qdeathstar]

 

[gearchruncher]

You don’t need a flir camera though. Cheap ir leds can be used to give any camera “night” vision which would be a great improvement over nothing. That’s how ring cameras do their thing and they can see through glass.

The cameras do have "clear" pixels, which may be sensitive to IR light if it doesn't have an IR filter. Like a security camera can do at night.
However, the car does not have IR headlights, so it doesn't matter. The earth is not bathed in natural IR light at night, which is why security cameras need IR emitters.
Tesla could theoretically do this in the future, but not with a SW update to current cars.

10W+ of IR LED's would be highly visible. By referencing BMW/Audi, @texas_star_TM3 clearly meant one of the "night vision" FLIR systems that does not need artificial illumination.

It's all irrelevant because Tesla clearly did not add a FLIR camera or IR headlights when they removed radar, so cars made today are going to have to auto high beam when on AP (and it makes me wonder how AEB's performance changes at night when the driver doesn't use high beams). If they had IR emitters, they'd already be using them

One side note- IR modes in cameras remove color information. Tesla uses color (cones, red lights, stop signs, speed limit signs, etc). They would need to remove this color processing from their algorithms. Which would be yet another pivot, since they have been moving towards using cameras with more color capability, not less.

 

[rjpjnk]

I think the red leds might look better that high beams.

 

[qdeathstar]

10W+ of IR LED's would be highly visible. By referencing BMW/Audi, @texas_star_TM3 clearly meant one of the "night vision" FLIR systems that does not need artificial illumination.

It's all irrelevant because Tesla clearly did not add a FLIR camera or IR headlights when they removed radar, so cars made today are going to have to auto high beam when on AP (and it makes me wonder how AEB's performance changes at night when the driver doesn't use high beams). If they had IR emitters, they'd already be using them

One side note- IR modes in cameras remove color information. Tesla uses color (cones, red lights, etc). They would need to remove this color processing from their algorithms.

Maybe that is what starlink is for, to bathe the earth in IR light.....

 

[rxlawdude]

Thank you for the warm welcome! The issues with auto-wipers and auto-highbeams seem to be fairly well documented. As is the issue of requiring auto-highbeams to use AP. Are these what you deem to be unverified speculation? I found the contrast between the reports of problems with auto-highbeams and auto-wipers versus claims of great strides coming soon in FSD very puzzling. I'm reminded of the adage:

In theory there's no difference between theory and practice but in practice there is.

My decision to accept delivery may well be affected by how Tesla handles these current issues. Ideally, Tesla will have all the problems fixed before I have to decide whether to take delivery or not. ISTM the best way for us to help reach that ideal is to point out the issues and point out the bad optics they create. Pretending these issues are not real and are only unverified speculation helps no one except possibly Tesla's competitors.

You realize that the radarless cars' code base is at what most would consider beta 0.9. It WILL get better, and not in months or years. Sheesh.

As to optics, I agree Tesla's communication and transparency suck. But the wholesale attack based on a very very early software version seems a bit overdone.

 

[texas_star_TM3]

You realize that the radarless cars' code base is at what most would consider beta 0.9. It WILL get better, and not in months or years. Sheesh.

As to optics, I agree Tesla's communication and transparency suck. But the wholesale attack based on a very very early software version seems a bit overdone.

we are talking about key safety features here and not some "nice to have" new video games or addition of streaming services. there's a reason regulators are listing the current 3 / Y as *missing* key safety features like AEB / lane departure etc.

 

[qdeathstar]

Coulda just left radar there if they didn’t want to get attacked, then when vision was ready roll with radarless. Clearly it’s not ready.

putting the cart before the horse...

 

[gearchruncher]

But the wholesale attack based on a very very early software version seems a bit overdone.

Man, so easy for those of us with stable, older hardware to attack brand new owners that just plunked down $50k for being annoyed that they got a "very very early software version" after being sold a very stable system that has been in use by Tesla for 5 years and they got to test drive. The NERVE of these people. Just chill and wait, it always works out. Some of the time.

Where on Tesla's website does it indicate you are buying a "very very early software version" that WILL get better in weeks?

If it doesn't get better in "not months or years," can they sue, or is this another case where Tesla has no particular performance they need to meet, you just need to trust them based on their great history of hitting the dates and performance they mentioned (not "promised")?

Interesting how when you thought Tesla might be keeping you from getting something you wanted, you "whined" about it:

Unsaid is the fact that those with HW3 and paid FSD (our case, $8K and $6K in 2020 and 2018, respectively) will NOT get "Tesla Vision." With the abandonment of radar-equipped FSD betas (the 8.x city FSD), we are pushed to the back of the line.

How freakin' dumb is that?

Understood about the restrictions. But we are restricted from city street FSD. It's inexplicable why vision-only would not be deployed to earlier builds, unless there is something different about the cameras and/or processing that is also new in the post-May builds.