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Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"

rjpjnk

Member
Mar 12, 2021
489
264
NJ
Green has some elevated access ;)
Oh, interesting.

I see V and A, which I assume are velocity and acceleration based on units, and I also see Radar V and distance listed separately. Radar V is close but not the same as V. Is this because V and A are based on cameras only?
 

YieldFarmer

Analytic.eth
May 26, 2021
63
74
USA
Oh, interesting.

I see V and A, which I assume are velocity and acceleration based on units, and I also see Radar V and distance listed separately. Radar V is close but not the same as V. Is this because V and A are based on cameras only?
Pretty sure that's correct but cannot confirm personally. Ask him on twitter if you'd like, he's very friendly and responsive.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
12,269
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Depends what you mean by vision only- given that cars with radar HW are still actively using it on 18.3

Nobody has gotten even a first "vision only" release other than the few cars delivered without radar HW.

But I believe those folks have gotten at least 2 different versions by now.
 
Oct 28, 2019
347
356
Texas
Depends what you mean by vision only- given that cars with radar HW are still actively using it on 18.3

Nobody has gotten even a first "vision only" release other than the few cars delivered without radar HW.

But I believe those folks have gotten at least 2 different versions by now.
I let radar-less cars happily be control group B to see if AEB and lane departure assist works just fine with vision only ... at least for the next few months
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
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Cite? From authoritative source?

Not doubting this may be the case, but show us something other than what seems a WAG.

Green has cited, and posted internal-video screen shots, showing the radar still in active use on current builds for cars with physical radar HW.

In fact someone posted an example of that in this very thread just 10 posts ago, showing both vision and radar velocity being measured by a car that had both sets of HW on it.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
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Green has cited, and posted internal-video screen shots, showing the radar still in active use on current builds for cars with physical radar HW.
Also... Logic.
Radar-free cars are still limited to 75 MPH, no smart summon, no LDA.
If radar cars had stopped using radar, there would be no reason for the feature split.

I'm still interested in what version number the "second release this week" is for the radar free cars. Still looks to me like they are behind, and we likely haven't started on Elon's new "one or two weeks after" timeline for FSD v9.....
 
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JHCCAZ

Supporting Member
Feb 2, 2021
242
416
Tucson
Does anyone know if there is any NHTSA testing or re-certification activity underway for the no-radar cars? Or any way to find out short of investigatory activity?

I believe Elon's tweet said something about "next week", two weeks ago, and the website says features will be restored in "coming weeks".

Outside of the usual doubt vs. belief, does anyone have info or hints regarding this? Or regarding the procedures to get NHTSA to perform the testing & certification activity when Tesla is ready?
 
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rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,683
1,902
Orange County, CA
Green has cited, and posted internal-video screen shots, showing the radar still in active use on current builds for cars with physical radar HW.

In fact someone posted an example of that in this very thread just 10 posts ago, showing both vision and radar velocity being measured by a car that had both sets of HW on it.
Did they show the specific model they were testing? And the specific build?
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
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Does anyone know if there is any NHTSA testing or re-certification activity underway for the no-radar cars? Or any way to find out short of investigatory activity?
Here's the fun thing. NHTSA doesn't have to test. Tesla can run the tests themselves and self-report to NHTSA that it meets the criteria. It says this right on the NHTSA pages:

These features have been either verified by NHTSA or reported by the vehicle manufacturers as meeting NHTSA’s performance criteria.
This is how brand new cars (like the Y) come onto the market with these checks already active- they were self certified by the manufacturer.

The "waiting for NHTSA to re-test" is a distraction by Elon, using his favorite "regulators are slow" excuse. Tesla can run the tests themselves and self certify. They could have done this before they released the software, and told NHTSA, and never lost the check marks. NHTSA then may or may not audit that (And it's really bad if you say it works but it doesn't), but they won't remove the checks until they have proof it doesn't work. The only reason not to do this is if the car doesn't actually work well enough yet, and you think a software update "next week" will fix it.

Yet....
 
Oct 28, 2019
347
356
Texas
Here's the fun thing. NHTSA doesn't have to test. Tesla can run the tests themselves and self-report to NHTSA that it meets the criteria. It says this right on the NHTSA pages:


This is how brand new cars (like the Y) come onto the market with these checks already active- they were self certified by the manufacturer.

The "waiting for NHTSA to re-test" is a distraction by Elon, using his favorite "regulators are slow" excuse. Tesla can run the tests themselves and self certify. They could have done this before they released the software, and told NHTSA, and never lost the check marks. NHTSA then may or may not audit that (And it's really bad if you say it works but it doesn't), but they won't remove the checks until they have proof it doesn't work. The only reason not to do this is if the car doesn't actually work well enough yet, and you think a software update "next week" will fix it.

Yet....

correct. which makes this whole thing a bit odd... parity of capabilities between radar and no-radar but AEB / Lane departure are deactivated and AP is limited to 75mph for now and NHTSA safety check marks are gone. isn't the "2 week" timeframe over by the end of this week? as you said - manufacturers can self certify if the system truly works as well as the old one...
 

JHCCAZ

Supporting Member
Feb 2, 2021
242
416
Tucson
...Tesla can run the tests themselves and self-report to NHTSA that it meets the criteria. It says this right on the NHTSA pages:...
Thanks for that reminder, it's a very important point. So, further schedule slips in the restoration of features and/or >75MPH operation probably reflect Tesla's actual dev issues.
The "waiting for NHTSA to re-test" is a distraction by Elon, using his favorite "regulators are slow" excuse. ...
To be a little bit fair to Elon, he actually hasn't blamed NHTSA in this situation. He's also made some positive/respectful comments about technical regulators (NHTSA, FAA) even while battling the process and pointing out, correctly, that the system can dis-incentivize them from abetting technical progress. I think he's been less respectful to SEC regulators.

I agree he's glossing over the remaining gap between old and new AP (not to mention arguable deficiencies in both). Kind of claiming the check's in the mail, well actually I just addressed the envelope, oh the stamp fell into a crack, but any day now...when really there still isn't enough cash in the bank account.
...The only reason not to do this is if the car doesn't actually work well enough yet, and you think a software update "next week" will fix it...
Agreed.
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
12,269
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Did they show the specific model they were testing?

A model with radar obviously since it's showing both measurements. Not sure why you think which one would matter?

Or do you think there's some substantive difference between radar use on say an X versus a 3? Do you have any reason or evidence to support such a difference that to my knowledge nobody has ever shown any reason to think exists?


And the specific build?

2021.4.18.3 which is the most current one anybody has per teslafi data as of this post.


Plus, as others have pointed out, if radar-having cars were using a vision only firmware (which, again, they're not) they'd either:
Have the same restrictions the current no-radar cars have (because vision only remains less capable than radar+vision)
or
They'd have removed those restrictions on the vision only cars (because they believe vision is at or above parity)
 
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rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,683
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Orange County, CA
A model with radar obviously since it's showing both measurements. Not sure why you think which one would matter?

Or do you think there's some substantive difference between radar use on say an X versus a 3? Do you have any reason or evidence to support such a difference that to my knowledge nobody has ever shown any reason to think exists?




2021.4.18.3 which is the most current one anybody has per teslafi data as of this post.


Plus, as others have pointed out, if radar-having cars were using a vision only firmware (which, again, they're not) they'd either:
Have the same restrictions the current no-radar cars have (because vision only remains less capable than radar+vision)
or
They'd have removed those restrictions on the vision only cars (because they believe vision is at or above parity)
With or sans cabin camera? Which model? Let's be thorough.

Example: my M3, 2017 VIN 138X, is on 18.2. Only our MY, 2020 vin 180XX, got 18.3. Huge difference in FSD highway performance.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,934
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Seattle, WA
With or sans cabin camera? Which model? Let's be thorough.
But let's also be contextual. This started with a question of if radar was in use in 18.3 cars, and you asked for a citation from a reasonable source that it was still being used.

How do the rest of your details help prove or disprove that, and what is your logic for why 18.3 on a radar equipped Model Y can do 90 MPH AP on the highway, or do smart summon, but a non-radar one can only do 75 MPH if it isn't the radar?

FYI, I have 18.3 on a HW3, non-FSD, non-cabin camera 2017 Model X. Does this mean I have "FSD Highway"?
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
12,269
17,214
NC
With or sans cabin camera?

Again, why do you think that would matter to if the car is using EXTERNAL RADAR or not?

You again seem to be desperately trying to move goalposts to cast doubt where there isn't any to be had based on the known/raw info from the internal look at what the system is doing.

But to reiterate another point Green made recently- only no-radar-hardware cars appear to be using the internal camera for driver monitoring as of the most current software (well, and possibly those still on the months-old FSDBeta software but that's even further afield of the topic).



Which model? Let's be thorough.

Example: my M3, 2017 VIN 138X, is on 18.2. Only our MY, 2020 vin 180XX, got 18.3. Huge difference in FSD highway performance.

Weird. 5 minutes ago you cared about interior camera or not, but now you're comparing 2 cars that both have cameras.

Anyway, any difference you perceive might be attributable to .2 vs .3, though both are still using radar.

It's not attributable to the model difference since there's nothing different in the software that cares about that in terms of perception or driving. (what do you imagine even COULD do so between a 3 and a Y?)
 
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