While I can't compare my Tesla Vision M3LR to older Teslas with radar, I can say my M3LR is horrible at TACC compared to my "cheap" Toyota Corolla. I am amazed at the simple areas where Toyota and other manufacturers are ahead of Tesla. Phantom braking and phantom lane change requests are averaging every 5 miles on a 4 lane highway every daily commute...disappointing.
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Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"
- Thread starter run-the-joules
- Start date
mikes_fsd
Banned
Sounds like you need to provide more context.
But "phantom lane change requests" is most likely tied to your Navigate on Autopilot lane change settings (maybe set too aggressive?)
powertoold
Active Member
I think Tesla does a bad job of educating new drivers about AP / FSD expectations, usage, tips, etc.
As more non-fanboys get the car, there will be more confusion and complaints about things that are working as intended or areas where AP shouldn't be used.
I watched many AP videos before I got my car, so I knew where it's likely to fail and what to expect.
As more non-fanboys get the car, there will be more confusion and complaints about things that are working as intended or areas where AP shouldn't be used.
I watched many AP videos before I got my car, so I knew where it's likely to fail and what to expect.
Yeah, I think the same. I imagine my mother using ap, if all you had were the tesla videos it wouldn't go well. I suppose some combination of lawyers and marketing works against this though.
I generally keep it so I have to confirm lane changes. I check back to see how things are going, but in my use cases there are one or two places the logic they are using breaks down. However, merging and exiting work pretty much perfectly. I suspect they have shelved the logic part of nav until tesla vision is more mature and they push more nav functions to machine learning. Tesla is pretty consistent about letting things languish when they know it will be replaced...like auto park for instance. Resource management meets minimum viable product.
Oh it certainly isn't being too aggressive. The Tesla Vision is detecting something in the road but never shows it on the display. A normal NoA lane change request happens well after the vehicle shows on the display.
The phantom braking happens when just using Autosteer but a lot more frequent with NoA's lane change request. I drive the same highway each day, 180 miles round trip, in night/day and rain/shine (sun behind me) and it never phantoms in the same spots.
Yeah if I let it auto-lane change then my car would be swerving between both lanes constantly...well not quite that bad but it would be changing every 1-2 minutes. The issues with Tesla Vision are not just on NoA but straight up TACC does plenty of slowdowns, the NoA lane change just comes up before the acceleration is let up so with TACC only then I don't feel it as much.
I know Tesla Vision w/o radar is their current path so I am still confident of software improvements but to go back to where other car manufacturers were at 5+ years ago is careless and down right unsafe.
rxlawdude
Active Member
I wish...it doesn't pick up little critters or large chunks of tire in the road.Ghost armadillos?
Being a programmer and troubleshooter, I have been going through a lot of different settings and scenarios the past two weeks to try and see a pattern in the algorithm problem, but nothing consistent yet.
powertoold
Active Member
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
As another pointed out, that may have to do with the menu setting. You can reduce NOA lane changes by toggling Speed Based Lane Changes (which adjusts what speed differential before car decides to change lanes to pass a slower moving vehicle), you can also toggle the "Exit passing lane" setting.
I guess Tesla Vision is "consistent" with the radar implementation in that some people report a horrible experience, but others have no issue. Also some report things improved with new updates, but others reported the old version was better. I doubt this is really anything specific with Tesla Vision, it's just how AP have been all these years.
I have no issues in stop and go traffic, but phantom braking occurs pretty consistently if coming up over a hill or nearing an overpass or…whenever it wants. It’s a LOT more frequent than my X with radar (almost no phantom braking).
The other thing that causes phantom braking is oncoming traffic. Think two lane country highway. Seems like the car is super conservative or confused about cars going the other way even though I can see the car “sees” a double line. It’s annoying because the visualization doesn’t show oncoming traffic, so I can’t see what the car is seeing.
I actually think TACC works very well in general. It’s smoother than my X.
Lane changing seems to work quite well too. I am referring to auto lane change. It’s gone in and out of lanes where my X wouldn’t move or I would’ve had to intervene
It’s impressive, though I still don’t trust as much as with radar. The phantom braking is super annoying though and often makes me hesitant to use auto steer.
I have no idea how summon will work as the ultrasonic sensors aren’t enough, but we shall see.
Final note - TV is pretty awful at noticing and showing pedestrians - even in a crosswalk. Not sure why. Same with bicyclists in the road. It sometimes shows them, then they glitch out even though they’re clearly in view. Wonder how the FSD beta is handling it as it seems better in the videos I’ve seen.
The other thing that causes phantom braking is oncoming traffic. Think two lane country highway. Seems like the car is super conservative or confused about cars going the other way even though I can see the car “sees” a double line. It’s annoying because the visualization doesn’t show oncoming traffic, so I can’t see what the car is seeing.
I actually think TACC works very well in general. It’s smoother than my X.
Lane changing seems to work quite well too. I am referring to auto lane change. It’s gone in and out of lanes where my X wouldn’t move or I would’ve had to intervene
It’s impressive, though I still don’t trust as much as with radar. The phantom braking is super annoying though and often makes me hesitant to use auto steer.
I have no idea how summon will work as the ultrasonic sensors aren’t enough, but we shall see.
Final note - TV is pretty awful at noticing and showing pedestrians - even in a crosswalk. Not sure why. Same with bicyclists in the road. It sometimes shows them, then they glitch out even though they’re clearly in view. Wonder how the FSD beta is handling it as it seems better in the videos I’ve seen.
Same results here. I think most people that have little issue are the ones not on the open highway by themselves. For me it works so much better with other traffic around and thus very little phantom braking.
I suggest you try TACC without AS as the AS for me has nothing to do with the phantom braking. I notice it a lot more with NoA because that is a much more aggressive lane change setup vs. TACC slowing down. At least what I found was the AS has nothing to do with the phantom braking or "almost braking".
Fair point. I almost always use AS and TACC together. I would expect braking issues are almost, if not entirely, TACC related. I really don’t understand how Tesla measures distance without binocular vision, but will read up on it. Seems to work best with more cars around, as you said.
I DO think, as I said above, radar clearly helped for bikes and people. It’s almost like the cameras are purposely ignoring people right in front of my car, and bikes. In fact, that’s probably what they’re doing as they know they’ve got FSD 9 coming out and will get those things “on” by then. My old X radar sees bikes a lot better.
Platini
Model Y LR White 2021
The Truth Behind Why Tesla Removed Radar w/ James Douma (a detailed discussion) (36 minutes - but well worth it):
Note: CIPV: "Closest In-Path Vehicle"
Note: CIPV: "Closest In-Path Vehicle"
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People saying they can't notice the difference ar full of it. Picked up wife's "Tesla Vision" Y a week ago. Put it un AP the first time a few dats later on highway. There was a car on the shoulder, not even close to the road, and the car slammed on brakes at 74 MPH. Had anyone been behind us I have no doubt we would've been in an accident.
My 2019 Model 3 has NEVER behaved like this in 28,000mi of mostly highway, AP driving.
My 2019 Model 3 has NEVER behaved like this in 28,000mi of mostly highway, AP driving.
I don’t disagree, but had two events today where cars cut me off while I was in AP and the car slowed, but didn’t jam the brakes. A third instance occurred when my car chose to switch lanes into a clear lane and someone two lanes to my right swerved over. My new Y adjusted steering to stay in the original lane but didn’t slam brakes or swerve. In all instances, there were several cars around me so I think my Y could figure out the situation better than an open road.
So again, TV phantom and unneeded braking is 100% real, and super annoying (I had the wiper issue happen today, of course, after I posted above that it’s not happened to me!) but it is also doing things as I list above that my radar enabled X doesn’t do well at all. It’s an odd mix.
That video above is quite interesting. I just wonder how long the transition to TV would have been if Bosch had no radar supply issues? It needs more time.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Well that's the problem with anecdotal evidence. People have experienced plenty of similar phantom braking using AP with radar also, so it's hard to say this is something isolated to Tesla Vision.
And given people are saying in mostly empty roads there is more phantom braking, I wonder if Tesla is now toggling their false positive sensitivity parameters in response to road conditions. Namely that if the car determines that it is safe to brake, it will err on the side of braking.
powertoold
Active Member
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