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From reading:
The FD did not want to risk personnel, so they did not attempt to extract the female. They did not extract the male for 20 minutes, who died at the hospital.
This is could be bad. Tesla is most likely blameless, but that really isn't important today. I can see the family suing about the delayed reaction by the fire dept which can also name Tesla as a defendant.
The FD did not want to risk personnel, so they did not attempt to extract the female. They did not extract the male for 20 minutes, who died at the hospital.
This is could be bad. Tesla is most likely blameless, but that really isn't important today. I can see the family suing about the delayed reaction by the fire dept which can also name Tesla as a defendant.
Tesla's lawyers then may or may not argue that the fire department should have gone in sooner than they did.
They'll want to see the fire department's training protocols for dealing with this type of fire, who got what certification and when they got it and if it is current. The whole shebang.
If it turns out that the fire department should have been more aggressive in retrieving those victims, and was not justified in their delay, well then Tesla should have nothing to worry about.
The fire department is going to do everything that it can to blame Tesla. And Tesla is going to do everything it can to blame the fire department.
It could be years before it's all sorted out.
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an almost 5000 Ibs car (Model S or X) that score 5 stars is a LOT safer than a lighter car that also score 5 stars. Front crash rating is NOT comparable across different weight class of vehicle. In other words, if you want the safest car out there, get the heaviest car you can that score 5 stars, and it better be an SUV (which has statistically lower death rate than sedan). Model X would fit that criteria.
I been a Car Tech, service manager and now teach Automotive at Tech College I have seen way worst gasoline car fires than this Tesla will be blamed for anything the other car companies will see that Tesla gets hammered and the Media will breed off it. Fact is Cars are killing machines weight,speed factors kill people that do respect what it can do
Yes I feel that the structure could use more reinforcement since there's no engine up front to absorb some of the Impact but that's not the whole fix. I have seen crashes that pushed the engine into the backseat. There are goo crush zones but they cannot help in a high speed impact no car can. Paul Walker paid the price for someone pushing the limits on a car without respect to road surface or things that could be hit like trees if control is lost. I have some very fast cars and over the years I learned to respect power no speed know when to open it up and when not too. Again the are killing MACHINES not your best buddy looking out for you. Respect the power the speed and surroundings and you will be safe abuse it and it's not if but when you may get killed. Tesla is a great car under development yet by miles their customers log the product is not 100% bug free but it's way better than cars of the past that had no safety features, and had steel dashes and weight a lot with no crush zone to safe the blunt force to the body. A few that have abused the car will cause restriction on the product by the Feds and ruin it for all. Remember all cars will kill they are an extension of our body doing as we tell it the car is never the problem the driver is responsible for a safe trip or not so safe and pays the price of their actions
somnambule
Member
People seem to have the unreasonable expectation that Tesla should get preferential treatment by the media. Wealthy people getting killed while riding flash cars always make good copy. The Paul Walker case has been mentioned already. If that had been two blokes from a council estate riding a souped up Civic, then the crash would have never got beyond the local press. Why shouldn't Tesla have to deal with the same media issues as other manufacturers?
BTW, it is true that not too long ago some people in this forum were banging on about the fact that no one had been killed in a Model S, and anyone who dared to point out that it was only a matter of time received a very frosty reception.
BTW, it is true that not too long ago some people in this forum were banging on about the fact that no one had been killed in a Model S, and anyone who dared to point out that it was only a matter of time received a very frosty reception.
They didn't attempt to extract the female because she was obviously dead on scene. It's normal protocol to wait until the fire is under control before taking out a dead person (non-viable).
See the video from the fire dept
*video removed by moderator, messing with formatting.
After seeing this, I better respect the professionalism and training these guys go through. He made it pretty clear, in my opinion, that the crash wasn't unnaturally difficult to deal with just because it was a Tesla.
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FD video is really good.
Also shows how some journalists are so willfully ignorant and inflammatory.
The FD person explains how Tesla publishes info on how to respond to Tesla accidents.
Then someone alarmingly asks "so you can't use jaws of life ?"
FD person has to say "No that is not true"
Odd how journalists and really all people divide up into those who are scared and alarmists about tech change and other people who just get it.
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Currently there are 253 million cars and light trucks on US roads and in 2015 there were 174,000 vehicle fires reported. That's 0.69 vehicle fires per 1000 on the road. The number of car fires per year have been declining there were 456,000 fires in 1980
NFPA statistics - Highway vehicle fires by year
I think around 5 Model Ss have caught fire in the US in its entire history. There were three in a short period in 2013 and I think a stolen one had a small fire after hitting parked cars at over 100 mph and breaking in half. Half the car ended up embedded in the wall of a synagogue. That one was in Los Angeles. Then there was this fire.
Internationally there was one that caught fire in a garage in Toronto, the Norway fire, the guy in the Netherlands who plowed into a tree at 95mph and the fire in France earlier this year.
I think there are something around 100-120K Teslas on the road in the US. If they caught fire at the rate ICEs do (assuming 100K), that would mean 69 Tesla fires a year in the US alone. The only EV to approach that kind of fire hazard has been Fiskar.
News reports are not always accurate, but some have said she died on impact. Firefighters are not going to risk their own lives to recover a body.
Statistically, as more cars get on the road, more people are going to get into crashes and more people will get killed. The Model S and X are very safe cars, but people do stupid things in cars all the time and some people get killed. It sounds like high speed was a factor in this crash. I wonder if she was being stupid and seeing how fast it would go on a city street, then paid the price for her stupidity.
I wonder how long it will be until fatal Tesla crashes get as much notice as fatal Subraru crashes
Gizmotoy
Active Member
Had "Dislikes" been a thing back then, I would have gotten probably more than a few of them when stating exactly that position. But to be fair, the number of people saying they thought Elon was taking a big risk publicizing that claim outnumbered those who supported it.
And the fact that Tesla has never been tested in a small offset frontal collision makes me think it would not do so well on that particular test. IIHS has publicly stated they'd test the Model S if Tesla formally requested they do so, but Tesla has not done so. The risk of a poor score on the additional tests in that suite is either not worth undertaking, or they already know its performance isn't great.
Either way, the Model S is a safe car, but the "safest car"? Not so sure.
This was a particularly sad case. Clearly the battery was compromised and combusted, but it's pretty concerning how fast that occurred if the witness reports are accurate. Fires in gasoline cars are indeed very common, but are usually slow to start because it's primarily the vapor that's flammable, not the stored liquid.
Here's a great lesson in how to twist facts to create your own sensationalist fear-mongering piece -- thanks to Fortune.
Step 1: Start with this well-written and appropriately-titled Associated Press entry:
Tesla says it's unlikely Autopilot used in Indiana crash
Step 2: Seize on the last sentence in that article (which states that investigators were looking to see if Autopilot played a role, even though the rest of the article was explaining why that is such an unlikely possibility).
Step 3: Make your own article with that first part as your subtitle: "Authorities are looking to see if Autopilot played a role" and then open the article with this gem:
Thanks, Fortune.
Step 1: Start with this well-written and appropriately-titled Associated Press entry:
Tesla says it's unlikely Autopilot used in Indiana crash
Step 2: Seize on the last sentence in that article (which states that investigators were looking to see if Autopilot played a role, even though the rest of the article was explaining why that is such an unlikely possibility).
Step 3: Make your own article with that first part as your subtitle: "Authorities are looking to see if Autopilot played a role" and then open the article with this gem:
and end it with this fine piece of journalistic guilt-by-association:
Indianapolis Police Are Investigating a Fatal Crash Involving Tesla
Thanks, Fortune.
somnambule
Member
I know some here are opposed to speed-limiting Autopilot (bummer, can't abbreviate without ambiguity when also discussing Associated Press), but I think it's great that Tesla can exclude Autopilot use with high probability in these sorts of cases where extreme speed was clearly a factor. Here'a quote from the Associated Press article: "But the company said the system likely wasn't engaged, because Autopilot would have limited the vehicle's speed to less than 35 miles per hour on the street where the accident occurred. Witness statements and the damage to the car suggest the car was going faster than that, Tesla said."
Also from the otherwise-good Associated Press article: "car was travelling at a high rate of speed". I'm seeing and hearing "rate of speed" more and more in the news. Why not just say "at a high speed"? Isn't speed already a rate? And isn't "rate of speed" really acceleration (which we can't conclude anything about here)? What am I missing?
As for the Fortune article, the title appears to be "Indianapolis Police Are Investigating a Fatal Crash Involving Tesla". The accident is "involving a Tesla". One vehicle; not the entire company. Perhaps it's their desire to see the entire company crash coming through. Anyway, I'm not even going to click that click-bait article link.
Sorry, I seem to be in a pedantic mood today.
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RogerHScott
Active Member
Can I hear an "Amen!" for just "fast"?
People like to say words. Mo' words, mo' betta. Someone, somewhere got the erroneous impression that verbosity is a strength.
That idea took off, and now here we are
jgillispie
Member
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