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Tesla Crash in Indy

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This is what I was afraid of, can anyone else confirm? It annoys me to no end some of the overly complex engineering "solutions" that Tesla has put into their cars.

Tesla isn't the only ones, it is fairly common now. Corvettes are that way as well as some McLarens. (I'm sure lots of others as well, but I don't have specific knowledge of them.)

I think it is one of the ways that they combat people using "slim jims" to get into locked cars.
 
As Tesla explains on the page below, the rationale to cut the 12V battery supply loop:

1) Disable all SRS components: no need for un-deployed components after the collision to interfere the First Responder trying to access to the car.

2) Disable the High Voltage Contactors: Without the 12V, High Voltage Contactors no longer works which prevents the flow of 400V out of the main pack.

This is a precaution in case the High Voltage Pyro-Fuse fail to automatically disconnect the 400V due to non-SRS triggering events such as very low-speed collision. In that case, cut the 12V loop would disable the 400V.



View attachment 423582




I've never seen any airbag-deployed Model S with its handles retracted.

Please show me a picture of an airbag-deployed Model S with its handles retracted.

Here is mine in the salvage lot with dead 12V, airbags deployed in crash. Handles were inop and retracted after 12V died as I recall.

c746f04c-6041-4a72-85e3-f052ec577315.jpeg
 
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Whenever there are mistakes in news stories I email the journalist. They ALWAYS reply and sometimes they’re even cool about it and issue a correction. At the least you’ve done your part to educate the journalist on EVs so if they publish the same garbage again it’s completely on them and not on just false common knowledge
 
Here is mine in the salvage lot with dead 12V, airbags deployed in crash. Handles were inop and retracted after 12V died as I recall.

Thanks for the picture in the yard.

However, your picture at the scene of the accident shows the airbag deployment and protruding door handle as per protocol:

20171221_135511s-jpg.268054


It's unknown what happened between the accident scene and the salvage yard that made the handles hidden after the first picture.
 
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Thanks for the picture in the yard.

However, your picture at the scene of the accident shows the airbag deployment and protruding door handle as per protocol:

20171221_135511s-jpg.268054


It's unknown what happened between the accident scene and the salvage yard that made the handles hidden after the first picture.

Yes, after the accident the 12V was functional. I was able to open the trunk, frunk and passenger door, screen was up and radio still playing. By the time the car got to the tow yard, the 12V was dead and we could only access the car from the damaged driver door. Luckily I got most items out of the car while 12V was functioning. I was unable to delete personal info from MCU as I did not think to accomplish that.

So if an accident was severe enough to sever or disconnect the 12V during the crash, door handles would be inop. One of the Teslas involved in a crash that then caught fire (Florida I think) bystanders reported not being able to get door handles open to get driver out of car before flames overtook vehicle.
 
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...Yes, after the accident the 12V was functional.

Per protocol, when SRS signal triggers unlocked handles, that signal does not cut off 12V.

First Responders needs to manually cut the 12V loop if it wants to disable 12V and High Voltage Contactors.

...By the time the car got to the tow yard, the 12V was dead and we could only access the car from the damaged driver door....

Because the 12V was still on for quite some time and no one shut it down while the handles were unlocked, so the car would automatically retract the handles as in all scenarios (accidents or regular parking stop).

...bystanders reported not being able to get door handles open to get driver out of car before flames overtook vehicle.

It's possibly true but without pictures or explanation from Tesla on why the protocol of unlocking doors didn't happen when triggered by SRS, I just don't know.

It's possible that the door unlocking triggered by SRS only lasts as long as the standard automatic timeout and if no one cuts the 12V, the door handles would automatically retract again. If this is the case, I would suggest Tesla to disable automatic retraction even after a timeout period in an SRS incidence.
 
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Yep, it appears that I confused that a little. But the motor doesn't actually pull the handle back in, it pulls the paddle gear back that was pushing the handle out. (So the motor can't exert force on fingers that are between the door and the handle.)

But there is no mechanical connection from the handle to the door latch mechanism. So if there is no 12v power, you can't open the door from the outside. (Even if the handle is still sticking out.)
I hope you learned the lesson not to vehemently state as fact what you really don’t know. I know we’ve all done that a time or two. If you don’t well and truly know, how about saying “I think...”
 
I hope you learned the lesson not to vehemently state as fact what you really don’t know. I know we’ve all done that a time or two. If you don’t well and truly know, how about saying “I think...”

And look at what I originally said:

Nope, my understanding is that as soon as you lose power the handles should retract unless there is body damage preventing them from doing so.

That certainly is not "vehemently stated as fact".
 
There's a fair amount of BS, under the guise of logic, being posted here. As is that black-MS crash pic where the 12V battery never got hit. But, it is possible to work through whether access should be made available from the outside in a serious crash.

Like Az_Real's posting, here is a 2016 MX on the salvage lot, one I now have, after it got totaled from what looks like it hitting a pole and lighting up like several hundred little 18mm x 65mm candles went off (which they did).

B7-F32-E3-A-14-C0-4-B9-D-9-FCE-7-E7-E9-D5-AF0-BD.png


Yes, the picture should scare you straight (I don't know if the occupant (s) survived). IMO, a 400+ horsepower car should require a skills endorsement on the driver's license and zero alcohol tolerance, much like they do with a pilot's license....too many former Volvo & Subaru drivers (most are inept, in my observation, which is why I believe they buy 'the safest car') are taking the reigns of the most expensive car they could throw options on (Ludicrous has a lot more success and class association than a peasant's MS 60 does) and totaling them after less than a few thousand miles. No endorsement, the car gets perma-dialed down to 250HP (the P100D badge stays). I digress.

There is **no 12V battery ** left in almost any high speed front crash where an object, like a tree or pole, has hit hard between the frame rails (don't know anything about M3, since I don't have one yet). The 12V battery gets *annihilated*. The problem was made orders of magnitude worse when they moved the 12V battery from its original PITA-to-R&R location in the MS to the current one (2015+ ?), presumably to make it easier & cheaper (labor) to change that battery out. However, most cars have their batteries even further forward of the station where Tesla put theirs. In my '18 (not a typo, there's a second one) MX, the battery was put on the firewall -- I can only guess it's always been in that location on a MX, and the battery still got annihilated on the '16 (as did the DC-DC converter that charges it. The front end got crushed so badly the front drive motor was pushed up into the display/computer...).

In fact, a crushed 12V battery is probably a key ignition source in such crashes (in my '16 MX, which my 4yo granddaughter has affectionately named "Burnie", the crash took out the 12V battery *and* lit the HV pack when it, too, got partially crushed...modules at the rear of the pack had their mounting tabs broken, as well), if you ignore the front jumper cable locations (which I think are also deleted in the newer MX) that facilitate a short in a front-end crash. Again, I digress. Sorry.

The door handles stayed retracted on Burnie, as you can clearly see. All four of them. The 12V power was interrupted in milliseconds to where even a computer commanded handle extension would be impossible. Despite being in the safest battery location forward of the firewall.

The Tesla retractable door handles appear to be one of the finest points of engineering idiocy in these cars, where Elon's (presumably it was his idea) novelty appears to have won out over adult supervision (there are a lot of places in these cars where it's obvious the adults took a week or two off) during design and where basic function appears to have been ignored (like being pulled OUT of a battery-disabled car).

With no 12V power you'd expect that the doors should be openable from the outside -- and that's been stated here in several motherhood and apple pie postings. BUT -- in that case, anyone can open a Tesla's frunk and kill the 12V power to the car, enabling them to get into the car, so remedying the apparent idiocy becomes a major vehicle security issue. The notion that the handles should present on 12V power loss now starts to become tenuous.

Then you have to take into account that, in *any* car, if the doors were locked, you can't get in or out (there are a few exceptions for egress capability while locked, Tesla being one - they did egress BETTER than most cars, IMO, and it IS mechanical) without unlocking the car first -- if a non-Tesla car was locked, even though it doesn't have retract handles, a good Samaritan or responder cannot get in from the outside without breaking the window glass.

So, non-presentation of handles after a crash becomes complete nonsense because all locked cars have been unopenable from the outside, and most also from the inside, before and after crashes ever since cars were equipped with door locks *many* decades ago.

It could even easily be argued that the Tesla's retracted handles after a crash is a distant indicator to good Samaritans and responders that the car is locked and a window needs to be broken to get people out. It's easier and quicker (seconds count) to find and grab something to break a window while running toward a crash vs running right up to it, then realizing the doors are locked, and then going back and searching for something to bust a window.

All Tesla needs to show, IMO, is that the doors were locked at the time of the crash, which should be in the crash recorder data. If they weren't, then they *might* be in deep doo-doo, IMO, but even then, *any* car with auto-locking doors during the first forward movement would also be unopenable.

Sadly, with no insurance coverage for drunk drivers, I think the plaintiff's only recourse is to sue the driver's estate. But, the plaintiff's lawyers (I am not one, by the way) go after the deepest pockets, relying on a settlement. Tesla shouldn't cave on one, IMO, but defending litigation costs a lot of money and the math is that it's cheaper to pay money out than prevail and try to recover fees and costs from whomever initiated the suit. I still think Tesla can prevail in a motion for summary judgement, though. But, I'm not a lawyer.

As an engineer, can this lack of handle presentation after the 12V battery has been disabled be remedied? Of course it can. We engineers can solve almost any problem, provided it is presented to us as a problem vs frivolous request that paints us into an ugly or expensive (consumer products) corner. But, presentation of outside door handles never ***had to be*** remedied by the standards and expectations, by consumers, for locked car doors that were set almost a century ago.

One of the key ownership rules for an all-aluminum Tesla is, 'Don't hit anything.' People also shouldn't drive cars beyond their skill level (significantly reduced when impaired), no matter how 'safe' the cars are claimed to be....but ego and status prevail over common sense and 'safest' is blanket coverage for any inept or impaired selfish moron behind the wheel.

EDIT: coupla typos
 
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...The door handles stayed retracted on Burnie...

Burnie is a Model X that has no exterior door handles. They are just shiny long chrome buttons. They never retract and they never protrude. They are always flushed.

So, when we are talking about retractable handles, I assume we are not about talking Model X but about Model S.
 
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That's a problem indeed. Without 12V, Model S door handle motor can't function.

Maybe there should be local supercapacitor at each handle so that there's enough energy to turn Model S door handle motor just in case the 12V battery is destroyed in a collision.

That wouldn't matter as you need electricity when the handle is pulled to send a message over the CAN bus to the door latch mechanism to open the door. And if the CAN network wiring is damaged/shorted in the crash you wouldn't be able to transmit a message to the door latch.

In other words, you can try the handles but you should probably just assume that you would need to break the window and pull the manual door release that is on the inside. Which is next to impossible for the rear doors on the S, basically impossible on the rear doors on the X, and there is no manual release mechanism for the rear doors on the 3. (So open the front doors and get people out from there or use the jaws of life to force the rear doors open.)
 
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In summary: Model S exterior handles needs 12V to either push the handles out or pull the handle back in by the injecting reverse polarity 12V to the motor. If there's no 12V, the motor does not move, the gear does not move, and those handles stay where the last position they were in.

Not completely true. When there's no power, you can still push the handles in. There's some resistance, but the motor will move.
 
Not completely true. When there's no power, you can still push the handles in. There's some resistance, but the motor will move.

Correct!

Once the handles protrude, they stay protruding unless something changes:

1) the 12V makes the motor turn to allow the handle to retract
2) you manually push on the handle from outside which in turns manually turn the gear and the motor.
 
Here is mine in the salvage lot with dead 12V, airbags deployed in crash. Handles were inop and retracted after 12V died as I recall.

View attachment 423671
Thanks for the picture in the yard.

However, your picture at the scene of the accident shows the airbag deployment and protruding door handle as per protocol:

20171221_135511s-jpg.268054


It's unknown what happened between the accident scene and the salvage yard that made the handles hidden after the first picture.

Good grief... I really hope that you salvaged those beautiful Midnight Silver Forged Arachnid wheels. :cool:

c746f04c-6041-4a72-85e3-f052ec577315-jpeg.423671
 
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I don't know about the Model X but that's not true for Model 3 and S.

If Model S and 3 are unlocked and without 12V (as in an activated-SRS collision with 12V loop cut), you can still mechanically open the doors with its exterior handles.

Model S takes one extra step because if it's unlocked and the handles are still retracted (as in when you park your car and walk away without an automatic lock, let the handles retract first then disconnect your 12V), you have to dig in and manually pull them out which is very easily done.
The only thing you are right about but didn't say is that the rear doors have a manual interior release by the passengers heels.
 
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