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Tesla DC charging network

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by dsm363, Oct 8, 2011.

  1. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #1 dsm363, Oct 8, 2011
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
    Tesla DC charging (Supercharger) network

    I thought a new thread about Tesla's new 90kW charger, how people think it will be implemented, what they'll charge, if they'll submit it for a standard..etc was worth it.
    Some of the discussion already started here
     
  2. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I really hope they look at where their owners are and build the network out from there to connecting major cities. They should be about 100 miles apart along major highways to start. In Texas, you could connect the 4 major cities (Austin, Dallas, Houston and San Antonio) with 4 chargers.

    Has Tesla indicated how fast they intend to build out this network or how many chargers they'll start with?
     
  3. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    This is important so I cross posted this from the other thread. If the DC network is not sufficient we need additional higher amperage EVSE's, and owners will need to order the optional additional 10 kw onboard charger.

    The problem will be as I have shown in other threads, that nobody will produce a higher power EVSE'S if there are not cars that will accept them. In my letters to Eaton, it was apparent that they had at least some prior knowledge to stop their planned production of 70 amp EVSE'S . The only manufacturer of high power level2 EVSE'S is Clipper Creek.

    Expansion of the 70 amp EVSE'S will require;
    1. People to order cars that require or can utilize their potential (optional additional 10kw charger)
    2. Manufacturers to produce and deploy high power level2 EVSE'S
    3. The DCPower level3 charging network to not be deployed adequately
    4 Owners to drive their cars farther than their home charging range

    I believe that Tesla is looking at the level3 network as an income stream. I don't expect level 3charging to be free!
     
  4. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    #4 richkae, Oct 8, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011
    In the other thread I said that Tesla needs to needs to find hosts for their charging locations.
    The goal of that is not to make those people foot the bill for installation, the goal for that is so that Tesla doesn't have to own, lease or manage the property with the chargers on it.
    ( Getting the host to pay for some or all of the installation would be a bonus )

    I believe the locations that provide the most benefit are between major cities.
    I think ideal locations are restaurants, casinos, outlet malls, hotels, golf courses, small tourist towns or other tourist traps.
    Of course they need ample parking and a location that can provide a valet ( like a hotel or a casino ) is optimal because then the valet could shuffle multiple cars through the charger if there is contention.
    You are going to have to stop for 30-60 minutes, and they will want to capture money from you while you do.

    It does not seem like a hard sell to me. I would think that locations like casinos could be easily enticed into footing some of the cost.
     
  5. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    The only way this will work is if Tesla can demonstrate a steady stream of drivers who are prepared to use (and pay for?) the Charger. IMO Tesla will struggle to deliver a steady stream of drivers because the numbers of cars on the road will be small for many years.

    If however Tesla can combine this service with support for mainstream cars using CHAdeMO then it's a completely different proposition IMO.
     
  6. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight _____ P85 #549 _____ Sig Red / Sig White

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    A friend of mine who was high up with one of the railroads pointed out to me that the maximum range of a railroad engines back in the day used to be about 150 miles and therefore when you look there's a significant city typically every 150 miles or so (these cities sprang up around the railroad depots). So from Atlanta there is a ring of cities all about 150 miles from us: Chattanooga, TN / Greenville, SC / Augusta, GA / Macon, GA / Montgomery, AL / Birmingham, AL. For Tesla, locating their DC Charging in these cities would make a lot of sense. And then 150 miles beyond these cities you're going to find more major cities like Nashville, TN / Charlotte, NC et cetera where they will eventually have their own stores.

    I expect a Tesla Store everywhere there's an Apple Store (major cities). And I expect eventually there will be charging infrastructure (Tesla's own or other outfits) everywhere there's a Starbucks (mid-major cities).
     
  7. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    on my meeting with tesla , i tried a further discussion about the need for 3-ph in Europe. JB Straubel mentioned the importance of high level fast DC charging and they will setup of fast DC charger to wipe out the need for charing with more than 10kW even in Europe. Because more then 95% of all charging will be done at home or office, only little extra charging will be needed on long distance travel. The smallest range is 160m. I think they start with 300miles between each nodes and will expand it to 150miles later. Because of using same mass-producted 10kW onboard charger the cost of the 90kW DC fast charger is much lower as any other. Hope only Tesla makes the new DC charging network available to the current Tesla Owner too. 80% SOC in 30-45min cool.
     
  8. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Interesting point! Maybe if Tesla puts multiple fast chargers in one place, they'll build a city around it. :wink:
     
  9. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Welcome to the future!
     
  10. William13

    William13 Member

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    Eberhard, could Tesla leave the inboard charger out of European cars and string together three of their 10 kW chargers for a portable slow DC charger to take advantage of European 3phase with minimal change in total cost and improved functionality?
     
  11. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    Will,

    Eberhard already brought up that idea. This will end somewhere near 50kg ~100lbs (3x charger a 15kg in a casing plus some cabling and plugs). Too heavy to lug around in the trunk/frunk and too expensive to leave it outside the car for ~3hours (remember any Tesla key fob will unlock the plug from the charge port).
    The idea with modular 10kw chargers is all nice, but for 3 phase DC charger to be portable we need a more refined design. I'm afraid such a device will end up with extra cost, late availability, limited numbers, and poor support from Tesla.
     
  12. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    With respect you seem to have backed away completely from your demand for 3-Phase support on the Model S. Am I wrong or have you accepted that Tesla will never support 3-Phase and we have to accept the proprietary DC Charging system?
     
  13. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    are you being sarcastic or do you really believe that Tesla can deploy a usable proprietary Fast Charge network across Europe?
     
  14. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    Another thought not brought up: I wonder how owners and Tesla will feel when owners of other cars (Nissan, BMW, etc) design a workable adapter for the Tesla DC charging system?
     
  15. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Did I leave any doubts? Perhaps they will start with installing fast chargers only after they start selling Model S in each country, but yes, they will start with the most important routes, and then add more coverage as they sell more Model S. Why would they not?
     
  16. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    It took more than 2 years of voluntary effort by Tesla owners and enthusiasts to get the HPC network deployed in the UK - the first national network anywhere in the world. Even today it has some gaps that Tesla have been unable to fill, indeed we see no indication that the network will expand unless we do it ourselves. IMO Tesla have no idea what it takes to deploy infrastructure.

    In contrast, Nissan and other groups are deploying CHAdeMO in increasing numbers and with the new low cost hardware that will become more attractive to many potential host sites.
     
  17. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Has anyone ever seen a non Tesla vehicle charging from an unmodified Tesla HPC ? Even though the pinout and signalling are known and basically standard, they didn't make it easy for others to get the socket to plug into those EVSEs so it was basically a "Tesla only" offering. Will they do the same thing with the new equipment? For instance, keep others from getting sockets for their new type of connection? If history is a roadmap, it seems they might try to keep it proprietary and for Tesla cars only. But time will tell.
     
  18. GSP

    GSP Member

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    I hope Tesla does not keep their DC charging network proprietary. It is difficult to justify reserving parking for EVs only. It will be an even harder sell to set aside valuable parking for Teslas only. Getting property owners to agree to this likely will be an issue.

    Non-proprietary charging stations that all EVs and PHEVs can use is the future.

    GSP
     
  19. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    The 22kW charger from Brusa only weights 12kg maybe place it on the second space of the onboard charger
     
  20. tomsax

    tomsax Member

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    It's finding hosts that are both willing and capable of hosting 90 kW charging that is the hard part. Compared to that, the equipment cost is trivial.

    ECOtality is two years into trying to build fast charging infrastructure with a federal grant that makes the equipment free and subsidizes the install costs. Even with that, they still have not planted a single station yet. In addition to finding a willing host that has parking they can reserve for infrequent use and power to spare (or the willingness to upgrade), there are lots of zoning issues, both for electrical and road use issues, plus demand charges that can make electricity more expensive than gasoline.

    My advice: dream about Tesla's fast charge network, but buy the full 20 kW on-board charger and be ready to contribute to community-funded Level 2 infrastructure.
     

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