Tesla disables autopilot in hk - just happened, very disappointing

[Titus]

Clearly your car doesn't have autopilot. It is less safe not using it, the capability of a driver to monitor what is happening is far greater with AP on. If you had used it, you would have noticed that it almost never behaves badly if it's used in highway driving as advertised. I have probably done more km than anyone on HK on it and it works safely and reliably.

Clearly you can read my signature :biggrin:

You could enforce every owner to use it as advertised? :tongue:

To my knowledge, Tesla is working on exactly that with the next update in setting parameters to ensure people use it within the advertised intentions. Instead of being fools with it and I know of someone who was paying attention and still struck down a row of cones after the car steered into them in HK. Cones, small children, not sure if I'd rest my family's life in someone else's hands regardless of how many kms they've logged on their own.

If people insist on using an un-perfected product and making it available to people without locking them into using it under advertised parameters, just because of what market and sales guys promised them, then I just hope there's no major injuries when the inevitable happens.

 

[Soolim]

Anyone know when they will ban AP in mainland China? :biggrin: I demand them to ban it there since we are under one system....oh wait lol :tongue: I'll be sure to add that to my list when I see the two guys who are running in my area's district elections if either of them support Tesla bringing back AP LOL hopefully before the elections in a week

And yeap I sure hope someone protects me and my family from being run down by cars that hits traffic cones on AP. Until they implement the full hands on steering wheel requirement in the next update or work out the bugs instead of using existing customers as guinea pigs doing their fleet learning and AI improvements, I hope your loved ones are protected too even if you don't wish the same protection on them.

1) Is it not one country two systems?
2) I fully understand your safety concern on the improper use of AP in HK. Never drove in HK, but I feel the number of highway km that the AP can be properly used in HK is limited, having been told earlier that cars cannot be readily driven into mainland.

 

[markwj]

I know of someone who was paying attention and still struck down a row of cones after the car steered into them in HK. Cones, small children, not sure if I'd rest my family's life in someone else's hands regardless of how many kms they've logged on their own.

If people insist on using an un-perfected product and making it available to people without locking them into using it under advertised parameters, just because of what market and sales guys promised them, then I just hope there's no major injuries when the inevitable happens.

To be 100% clear: The cones were hit while going through the autotoll barrier at the toll collection booth. While I sympathise, I suggest that Tesla's response to such a complaint would be "why were you using AutoSteer at that location when you were told not to, and clicked confirmation that you wouldn't?"

An example: If someone uses plain and simple cruise control and the car drives through a red light killing small children crossing the road, I don't blame the cruise control or the car manufacturer. I don't blame the manufacturer for permitting such reckless behaviour. I don't blame the Transport Department for permitting such dangerous technology in our cars. I blame the driver for using the feature where it is demonstrably not supposed to be used.

How exactly is Tesla going to technically implement 'locking them into using it under advertised parameters'?

The most obvious suggestion would be to limit it to a minimum speed. Not much use in stop-and-go highway traffic then (one of the best uses of the technology). And using the simple cruise control example again - that is intended for highway use and Tesla in my roadster restrict it to speeds above 48kph, but that doesn't stop me from safely using it at 50kph down the (non-highway) hill near where I live.

How about if the car detects the road markings are faded, it disengages autosteer? How is that going to help when the car drives fine for 100 kilometers and then suddenly disengages because it is hit with a patch of bright sunlight on the road? I've been involved in accident analysis, taught it, and can say from 20 years of experience that the most dangerous piece of high technology equipment is the one that fails (or disengages) only rarely and randomly.

I think Tesla's next update will refine minimum speeds for engaging these functions, and will require hands on the wheel and butt in the seat. That will stop the idiots getting in the back seat and letting the car drive. But, they won't be able to enforce those 'advertised parameters', technically or otherwise.

 

[riverboater]

I am very concern, disappointed, angry that Tesla Hong Kong can come into my car without my authorisation to enable or disable any feature! I totally felt that my privacy and safety is at risk! Just sending out an email does not give them the permission or right to change anything in my car!

 

[Titus]

To be 100% clear: The cones were hit while going through the autotoll barrier at the toll collection booth. While I sympathise, I suggest that Tesla's response to such a complaint would be "why were you using AutoSteer at that location when you were told not to, and clicked confirmation that you wouldn't?"

An example: If someone uses plain and simple cruise control and the car drives through a red light killing small children crossing the road, I don't blame the cruise control or the car manufacturer. I don't blame the manufacturer for permitting such reckless behaviour. I don't blame the Transport Department for permitting such dangerous technology in our cars. I blame the driver for using the feature where it is demonstrably not supposed to be used.

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How exactly is Tesla going to technically implement 'locking them into using it under advertised parameters'?

The most obvious suggestion would be to limit it to a minimum speed. Not much use in stop-and-go highway traffic then (one of the best uses of the technology). And using the simple cruise control example again - that is intended for highway use and Tesla in my roadster restrict it to speeds above 48kph, but that doesn't stop me from safely using it at 50kph down the (non-highway) hill near where I live.

How about if the car detects the road markings are faded, it disengages autosteer? How is that going to help when the car drives fine for 100 kilometers and then suddenly disengages because it is hit with a patch of bright sunlight on the road? I've been involved in accident analysis, taught it, and can say from 20 years of experience that the most dangerous piece of high technology equipment is the one that fails (or disengages) only rarely and randomly.

I think Tesla's next update will refine minimum speeds for engaging these functions, and will require hands on the wheel and butt in the seat. That will stop the idiots getting in the back seat and letting the car drive. But, they won't be able to enforce those 'advertised parameters', technically or otherwise.

Well, I think the having hands on steering wheel is one of the many requirements they need to have in order to lock the user into a set parameters. But you're right it's unfortunately impossible if it's the case where it's activated in crowded streets instead of the highways.

Which brings up the point about the suitability of AP for a place like Hong Kong (I'm not anti-AP, if it's a perfected system I'm all for it, but just not the un-perfected version they rolled out and used us as lab rats for); should it just not be available for places like HK and Singapore where majority of roads are grid locked with complicated road markings/obstacles? If they do that then it means it would auto-disable in North America if someone say drives into NYC from the suburbs.

Anyway, in my opinion, auto pilot is only a short phase in the development of the "transportation for the 21st century". Even Musk admitted AP is just one stop towards the final goal of autonomous driving; they are leveraging their existing fleet of cars sold to gather auto pilot parameter data in order to beat Google and other manufacturers to coming up with a perfected system for fully autonomous driving (car without steering wheel).

 

[markwj]

In UK, it is intended for Highway but not London city streets.

In USA, it is intended for Highway but not New York city streets.

In Hong Kong, it is intended for Highway but not central city streets.

Hong Kong has more than 2,000km or roads, and of those at least 145km are highways. I am not sure of the figures for Greater London, but probably comparable.

Just because it will not work in one part of the country doesn't mean it is not suitable for that country.

I personally drive 70% highway every day. Others drive to/from the airport every day. For me, and others, auto-pilot would be extremely suitable and very useful.

As to the "lab rats" comment, I believe Tesla are using the "Beta" tag in the Silicon Valley way. Feature complete, stable, but needs feedback from real world use. Google's Gmail was labelled beta for five years (from 2004 through 2009), and for two of those years it was generally available to the public.

 

[Titus]

In UK, it is intended for Highway but not London city streets.

In USA, it is intended for Highway but not New York city streets.

In Hong Kong, it is intended for Highway but not central city streets.

Hong Kong has more than 2,000km or roads, and of those at least 145km are highways. I am not sure of the figures for Greater London, but probably comparable.

Just because it will not work in one part of the country doesn't mean it is not suitable for that country.

I personally drive 70% highway every day. Others drive to/from the airport every day. For me, and others, auto-pilot would be extremely suitable and very useful.

As to the "lab rats" comment, I believe Tesla are using the "Beta" tag in the Silicon Valley way. Feature complete, stable, but needs feedback from real world use. Google's Gmail was labelled beta for five years (from 2004 through 2009), and for two of those years it was generally available to the public.

Maybe only activation available via GPS confirmation you're on a highway?

Just being devil's advocate, it's unfair to compared an email server roll out with roll out of control over something that is basically a 5000 pound bullet constantly fired around other people. It should be scrutinized much stricter before beta; imo something as potentially life changing as this, unlike regular Silicon Valley software, shouldn't have a beta phase on public roads. And if beta feedback is in the form of an accident, it will make future developments MUCH harder no matter how much we want AP. By using it before it's ready (to lock out people from running it in city streets instead of highways) is actually detrimental to AP development.

Just sayin' my opinion with all due respect

 

[markwj]

Maybe only activation available via GPS confirmation you're on a highway?

Not accurate enough, and hard to map out and decide which are highways or not. Someone would have to judge every single km of every road, and decide whether it is suitable or not. Maybe the mapping software they use already has a road rating system. For Hong Kong, probably able to be done manually, but imagine this for the whole of the USA!

Also, remember that the criteria is not just 'highway', but 'highway with clear lane markings or a car in front' as well as 'no sharp turns, and no absent, ambigous, or faded lane markings'. Easy for a human to make that judgement, but hard for a computer.

Just being devil's advocate, it's unfair to compared an email server roll out with roll out of control over something that is basically a 5000 pound bullet constantly fired around other people. It should be scrutinized much stricter before beta; imo something as potentially life changing as this, unlike regular Silicon Valley software, shouldn't have a beta phase on public roads. And if beta feedback is in the form of an accident, it will make future developments MUCH harder no matter how much we want AP. By using it before it's ready (to lock out people from running it in city streets instead of highways) is actually detrimental to AP development.

As I said, it depends on the interpretation of the word 'beta'.

In Silicon Valley, and the IT world in general, we use something like the definition from the PC Encyclopedia:

A pre-release of software that is given out to a large group of users to try under real conditions. Beta versions have gone through alpha testing inhouse and are generally fairly close in look, feel and function to the final product; however, design changes often occur as a result.

Beta testing is imperative when writing software because developers are too close to their products, and fresh eyes are essential.

I suspect that those outside the industry interpret 'beta' to mean buggy software that needs to be tested.

The reason for my Google GMail comparison is merely because Google is notorious for putting the Beta tag on finished products, for years in the field.

Remember that AutoSteer (and other AutoPilot features) have already been deployed to some 45,000 Tesla Model S cars on roads around the world. Every single auto-pilot capable car has had it deployed (with the exception of those in Hong Kong and Japan). Perhaps 45,000 Model S with it, 3,000 held back. What happens in Hong Kong is largely irrelevant to the global big picture, but hugely relevant to us here.

 

[nivak]

I didn't purchase Autopilot so I never experienced myself. But based on the software road map of Tesla I believe they will never risk themselves by releasing any new functions...
So I believed all these functions are more or less safe. The point is the driver.

Why don't Tesla consider giving Autopilot Class? (like how to use and the most important, the responsibilities and consequences on insurance for mis-use or unauthorized use...)
After class, then they can apply to the transport department allowing to turn on the Auto-thing case by case...

 

[Lerxt]

It is a ridiculous concept to have to leave your hands on the wheel for autosteer, it doesn't even warrant the dignity of being addressed IMHO.

The real question here is the sheer stupidity and ignorance of the TD in thinking they know more than Tesla and other more experienced authorities.

 

[Mille Pun]

Should that so called '創科局' help the deployment of new technology and drive the change in culture?

 

[markwj]

It is a ridiculous concept to have to leave your hands on the wheel for autosteer, it doesn't even warrant the dignity of being addressed IMHO.

I agree. However, the issue is now that the videos of idiots 'driving' the car while sitting in the back seat, reading newspapers, driving through city street road works, etc, have made this a political decision. Now TD seem to be having problems formally and publicly approving a system that can be abused as such. When the accidents happen, TD would be blamed for approving it.

The real question here is the steer stupidity and ignorance of the TD in thinking they know more than Tesla and other more experienced authorities.

Yep. Exactly. Approved in all states of USA. Approved in the whole of Europe. Approved in Australia. Are our roads really that different than, say, greater London?

 

[lx3h]

Should that so called '創科局' help the deployment of new technology and drive the change in culture?

I think so

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If TD doesn't try to upgrade themselves, very soon, Hong Kong will be the only place on the planet which has the highest density of the dumbest smart cars on the roads, talking about a Guinness Record?

 

[Silverbird]

I have one question, if your car is equipped with cruise control or TACC will you engage this system and rely on them when driving in heavy traffic urban roads such as Mongkok, Kwun Tong, TST, Causway Bay etc.? If your answer is yes, you must thank God that you and the other road users are not killed. If your answer is no, then why do you think that the auto pilot can do the same work as a human driver? Perhaps it is the wrong name given to this system! Someone may mistakenly take this system as a free and reliable chauffeur. To my understanding, the lane keeping function is the use of the front camera to identify the lane markings and the front rader to judge the distance between the car or obstacles and the car itself. In heavy traffic roads, the markings may be hidden by the vehicles in front or at the side lanes, this system will become not so efficient.
If you come up to a construction site, the normal driver will see the pre warning sign at least 200m before it, the sign also includes information on how the lanes are closed or rediverted, he will for sure to take precautionary action to avoid accidents including changing lanes in advance or at least slow down to avoid sudden merge of other vehicles to your lane. Do you expect this system can read all road signs and take action accordingly?
Finally, the car can read the distance between the car in front and yourself, it will take action to engage the brakes and even the emergency brake in case of need. But all these reactions required sufficient time for implementation. A good driver will observe a far distance including the road condition in front of the front car, Do you expect the rader to read the area in front of the front car?
i conclude that this system should rename as "lane keeping assist" and "lane changing assist" so that people will never depend on it solely. Never use the name "auto pilot " again that confused people's expectations!
For those people who don't follow the instructions as the usage of the system an take good alert and precaution when using this system, the police should take action to charge them with careless or even dangerous driving just like those who put a child in control of the steering wheel before.

 

[Lerxt]

Autopilot doesn't need a degree to understand. You are responsible for your car. Autopilot needs the driver to monitor what it does at all times, in other words you are driving more passively. Further, drivers have been told it is for highway use. How hard can it be?

Why is it that in Hong Kong people don't seems to get it's clearly explained use? Everywhere else in the world it is working and being used safely.

 

[icemankaka]

Talking about all those stupid ****ing morons in the hk govt on top with those who support demonic policies

vote those twats out tmr

 

[beewalker]

Don't forget we are human and can't be trusted. Even < 1% of tesla owners don't obey the rules, accident will happen. I can't agree more some limits be in place on auto steer. It's better than sorry.

 

[Jian Yang]

The guy on Crapple daily should be banned from tesla forever. Tesla should sue that ahole.

 

[Silverbird]

The crappie daily is always looking for anything to embarrass the government. The so call Mr. Jim in the video is only an actor, the whole report was well planned before. It was the official who reply to the question raised by the reporter was afraid of bearing the responsibility and said the system was not approved yet. I doubt very much that such kind of new function requires any approval at all. I don't think that approval was issued by the TD for the earlier TACC or the auto parking function.
Actually he should have the system tested by the department engineer in the manner as described in the release notes. Further investigation by the police to see if anyone is driving carelessly or dangerous.
Even the rubbish counsellor of the science and technology section was so unable to accept new technology, he was in the same tone as the crappie daily and blame the condition of roads in HK. Actually they are in the same boat against the government. I don't see the road conditions of HK is substandard than anywhere else in the world.

 

[gubes]

Is there still going to be a 7.0 update to fix the 3G issue?