Tesla driving telemetry and legal jurisdiction WRT local TeslaMate servers

[JonB]

A hypothetical situation regarding use of TeslaMate on a local machine like a Pi 4. It records lots of Tesla vehicle telemetry, including speed and the locations where each speed recording was captured.

This has me thinking. As I understand it, the data the car sends back to Tesla is stored maintained in the US; that is, generally outside the scope of UK law enforcement. They may be able to subpoena that information but they probably wouldn't. However, if I am running TeslaMate, I am making a copy of some or all of that data on my local machine so it is available to view when I log onto my TeslaMate server. In effect, the data is now present in the UK jurisdiction and much more accessible to UK law ennforcement.

So would I more vulnerable to prosecution in the UK as a result of the location of the data?

 

[init6]

Prosecution for what?
Holding the data isn't a crime, so are you more worried about Police getting their hands on your data if you are suspected of an unrelated crime?

 

[Zakalwe]

The old adage applies- if you don't want to do the time then don't do the crime.

 

[JonB]

It's hypothetical. I'm looking for a discussion on a data jusrisdiction question, not a bunch of holier-than-thou finger wagging.

 

[JonB]

Prosecution for what?
Holding the data isn't a crime, so are you more worried about Police getting their hands on your data if you are suspected of an unrelated crime?

This. The data is a smoking gun if it shows you were speeding at any time - but there is a wider question about Tesla's data capture and privacy as well. What I am trying to get at is, if the data is held in the US is it safer (from law enforcement) than if it is copied to a UK location?

 

[NewbieT]

Is that any different to other encrypted data in your possession. I bet the logs stored in your car go back a few weeks.

 

[NewbieT]

Also note GDPR has extra-territorial scope. People outside of the EU that process data of people inside the EU are obligated to comply with the GDPR too.

Might be irrelevant if we don’t consider driving information ’personal’ information.

 

[init6]

How would the police know you had Teslamate on a rPi?
Are you suggesting that they would trawl your teslamate data to look for speeding? If so I can recommend a good tinfoil hat

When you are charged with speeding, the police already have proof you were speeding - either camera or speed gun - so trawling your data is not required.
There's another thread on here about trying to use Teslamate data to prove you weren't speeding (actually it was to prove the car was speeding, but not as much as the police said )

The Tesla privacy notice can be found here: Privacy & Legal | Tesla

In it it states:

1. Tesla may transfer and disclose information, including information that may or may not personally identify you, to third parties to comply with a legal obligation (including, but not limited to, subpoenas or other court orders); when we believe in good faith that the law requires it; in response to a lawful request by governmental authorities conducting an investigation, including to comply with law enforcement requirements; to verify or enforce our policies and procedures; to respond to an emergency; to prevent or stop activity we may consider to be, or to pose a risk of being, illegal, unethical or legally actionable; or to protect the rights, property, safety, or security of our products and services, Tesla, third parties, visitors, or the public, as determined by us in our sole discretion.

So if the police got a court order they'd get it from Tesla without having to trawl your rPi.

 

[JonB]

This is just the discussion I was hoping for. Great forum!

It does seem like there will be speed limiters fitted in our cars by 2025 (see other threads on the topic) so perhaps this won't be an issue... guess I'm keeping my Lotus.

 

[NewbieT]

However for a more serious crime, does it prove a pattern of reckless behaviour, law breaking. Does it put your car at the scene of the crime? There are definitely crimes for which the police would like this data if they could get it.

There are also laws about destroying evidence. If you hold the data and it’s relevant to a crime and you delete it… Perverting the Course of Justice.

Public Justice Offences incorporating the Charging Standard | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[NewbieT]

Also have to consider whether the information is of an evidential standard.

PRACTICE DIRECTION 32 – EVIDENCE - Civil Procedure Rules

No idea whether you could be compelled to provide data that might implicate you.

P.S. if we are talking a serious crime (like someone died)…you definitely need a lawyer.

 

[init6]

P.S. if we are talking a serious crime (like someone died)…you definitely need a lawyer.

I *think* the OP is planning a crime rather than having already committed one.

 

[JonB]

I *think* the OP is planning a crime rather than having already committed one.

No I'm not... and if I were, I'd be a twit if I used the Tesla as a getaway car, no?

 

[DrJFoster]

It's no different to the tracking in your phone that goes on regardless.

The appetite to get hold of the data will be linked to the nature of the crime and to go tp the lengths you're talking about is way more than something like speeding.

And secondly who knows you use Teslamate? Nobody really, not even Tesla, they just know you query the API a lot, so admitting you've logged all that data and its sitting at home is just like saying "I was speeding officer", keep quiet

 

[Roy B]

This is just the discussion I was hoping for. Great forum!

It does seem like there will be speed limiters fitted in our cars by 2025 (see other threads on the topic) so perhaps this won't be an issue... guess I'm keeping my Lotus.

The EU/UK mandated Intelligent Speed Assistance isn't as bad as all that. The regulations have been published so we now know exactly what is involved. The car must have a display of the current speed limit. It must be equipped with (at the manufacturer's choice) either a speed limiter or a speed limit warning. The limiter or warning can be disabled by the driver, but defaults to enabled at the start of each drive.

 

[init6]

No I'm not... and if I were, I'd be a twit if I used the Tesla as a getaway car, no?

Other cars can be tracked as well. Maybe not the Lotus, but would you trust it to start as you're being chased out of the bank?

 

[init6]

Come to think of it, is that a stocking over your avatar?

 

[MrT3]

No idea whether you could be compelled to provide data that might implicate you.

You have the right to remain silent. However you don't have the right to withhold passwords/passcodes/encryption keys if asked to decrypt data.

So you don't have to admit you have Teslamate, but if found then you have to provide readable access to the data (provided you a suspected of a serious crime).

 

[JonB]

Come to think of it, is that a stocking over your avatar?
View attachment 751809

I actually laughed out loud. Thank you for that!

Now hand over your wallet.

 

[garylovesbeer]

If in Australia I imagine if a coronial inquiry was held that involved your vehicle they could and would seek all evidence that exists and/or is known.
The inquiry would certainly know that the car sends and stores very granular information regarding speed and location. If that information was relevant they would seek it.