Tesla Energy and utility scale projects

[brian45011]

The project is the latest to repurpose EV batteries for use in the stationary storage space, with BMW involved in a few others already underway this year. This includes a large-scale energy storage installation at a Vattenfall onshore wind farm in Wales, Britain, using more than 33 MWh of batteries.

Meanwhile, BMW itself has also launched stationary energy storage systems aimed at the residential and commercial & industrial (C&I) markets using batteries from its i3 electric vehicle range. Nissan’s Leaf EV batteries are among those also being used in “2nd life” battery projects, as are Daimler/Mercedes-Benz Energy batteries. While some projects are reusing or repurposing used EV batteries, the Alfen-Nuon-BMW project is thought to use new devices directly from BMW.

BMW batteries integrate power from Vattenfall’s 90MW Dutch wind park

IIRC, JB stated it is more economic to use new cells for storage rather than disassembling, inspecting,and certifying used cells. Maybe it varies by pack architecture/construction?

 

[schonelucht]

Could be that BMW is positioning itself for mandatory recycling fees on EV batteries. For example, in Belgium these are ridiculously low (7.5ct IIRC) for now since the regular recycling market seems to be able to absorb them. Should that no longer be the case (pretty conceivable as more EV batteries get to their EOL), then those fees will rise. To give an idea : the fee for recycling the battery of an electric bicyle is 12 EUR, so these fees can add up.

Related : anyone has any idea what Tesla currently does with battery packs it takes back? Some people claim they got a 'refurbished' pack. But that opens the question : if it is economical to refurbish a pack for use in a different vehicle, why isn't it for use in an energy storage project? There may be a technical reason here. Anyone any clue?

 

[adiggs]

Crossposting from the General Discussion thread - link to article from @vgrinshpun about residential battery energy storage demand in Australia.

2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

Aussies Are More Interested In Solar Batteries Than Ever

Behind the meter energy production, and the off-grid / backup power source use case, are driving the market from solar with occasional users including a battery, to solar plus battery with occasional users skipping the battery.

I wonder how soon the level of interest in Powerwalls in Australia will start turning into revenue we see in the quarterly report?

 

[adiggs]

The fossil fuel power producers in Australia are sowing the seeds of their own destruction. It's like they're trying to help their customers stop using their product.

This is the second article like this I've seen in the last week - big energy consumers in Australia are figuring out how to shift partly or completely off grid using renewables. The big driver they keep citing is unpredictable (read that as high, and so high we can't stay in business) energy prices, leading them to find alternatives.

WA garnet miner to build 3MW solar, wind, battery storage plant

 

[brian45011]

"TELSTRA will become an electricity generator at Emerald under a $100 million deal with RES Australia to build a 70 megawatt solar farm.
The deal is understood to be unique in Australia, where the company is considered the biggest user of electricity through its data centres and exchanges."
No Cookies | The Courier Mail [Headline: Telstra dials up $100 million Emerald solar deal with RES Australia ]

There is no mention of energy storage in the announcement. Robyn Denholm, a Tesla Director, was recently appointed COO of Telstra.
Nocookies [Headline: Former Juniper chief Robyn Denholm new COO for Telstra]

RES Group appears to be, to some extent, a competitor to Tesla Energy
energy storage providers, lithium ion battery technology, storage integration | RES - Global Renewable Energy Company

 

[adiggs]

Reported over in the Investor's Thread by several:
South Australia announces Tesla as backer of world's largest battery

SA battery storage tender won by Tesla and Neoen

Tesla in on the winning bid with apparently 129 MWh of storage in the deal.


Still two other states with similarly big tenders out for bid.

I also think that the right mental model isn't "this is the biggest freaking battery anywhere", but rather "this may be a critical proof point to get the market for utility scale battery storage kick started".

 

[geneclean55]

Reported over in the Investor's Thread by several:
South Australia announces Tesla as backer of world's largest battery

SA battery storage tender won by Tesla and Neoen

Tesla in on the winning bid with apparently 129 MWh of storage in the deal.


Still two other states with similarly big tenders out for bid.

I also think that the right mental model isn't "this is the biggest freaking battery anywhere", but rather "this may be a critical proof point to get the market for utility scale battery storage kick started".

Will be interesting to see how the other Australian states respond with their tenders. Energy is very political over there (everywhere I guess). Will politicians want to be seen as copying Jay Weatherill and going for Tesla, or will they try something else.

 

[adiggs]

Will be interesting to see how the other Australian states respond with their tenders. Energy is very political over there (everywhere I guess). Will politicians want to be seen as copying Jay Weatherill and going for Tesla, or will they try something else.

Reading Renew Economy on a regular basis is eye opening. Australia seems like they've worked themselves into a nightmare of an energy system. The good news, as a total outsider with no actual direct experience, it also looks like a system that is busy sowing the seeds of it's own destruction. Good money for the fossil fuel burners in the short term, while simultaneously doing everything they can to encourage the country to do anything they can to stop doing business with them.

Several recent articles about big businesses that are finding a way to get the energy they need to operate their businesses completely privately / separately from the grid and established utilities. They're saving money, but the primary reason they're also going into the energy business is to get reliable energy for their businesses. If the central utility is the unreliable option that is driving other business out (of the country, or out of business), that's a system dynamic that will correct itself.

 

[EinSV]

A decision on the 100 MWh or more storage project in Victoria (Australia) is due in August. Project is scheduled to start in late August for completion by January 2018 or earlier. Batteries and Energy Storage

The publicly funded portion is $25 million but there is also an expectation of at least a 1/1 match with private funding. I assume Tesla is in the running for this although haven't seen a mention of it. Details available in the link above.

 

[SageBrush]

It strikes me as quite the juggling act to split Gigafactory output between cars and battery storage.
Too much .. too little.

What headache

 

[adiggs]

It strikes me as quite the juggling act to split Gigafactory output between cars and battery storage.
Too much .. too little.

What headache

Clearly the best solution for that headache is to build more battery storage, faster!

I'm thinking the cranes are going to be operating at GF1 again soon - more modules to build, parking garages to start building. 100% year over year growth (which is what I think Tesla needs to hit this year, looking at units) to setup for 200% year over year growth next year, looks like a lot of frenetic activity

 

[Curt Renz]

Elon Musk's New Genius Way to Make Yourself Meet Deadlines

 

[adiggs]

does this twitter storm look like it's turning into some real and serious business (or is it just talk)?

Answering my own question I used to help kick off this thread:
Yes, real and serious business. Not just talk

 

[renim]

Reading Renew Economy on a regular basis is eye opening.....

Adiggs, you need to be careful about trusting Renew Economy too much, There are typically 4 to 5 different views on a situation and Renew Economy strictly only advocates one view.

South Australia went from an energy 'light on the hill' to an energy 'pariah' when they had black outs and power outages last year. Instead of paying $25million over 3 years to keep a coal power station on No Cookies | The Courier Mail , South Australia had black outs and is now forced into a $550million expense to add gas power and batteries to get back the resilience.

This current Tesla battery is a bit strange, as in the state government has not released a cost for the contract. I can't think on any Australian precedent to not releasing a contract's cost by a state government. (Federal - maybe for spy agencies, but not for electricity.)
For the losing tenders, I understand keeping the details secret, but not the winning tender.

Honestly, this smells really fishy, The South Australian government is hiding something, my guess is that multiple others were more cost effective.

The other context is that the Labour government has been in power in South Australia for 15 years, the last election was 23 seats VS 22 seats, very close.
One more power blackout this summer and its a change of government.

The other context is opportunity cost, $550m - $25m leaves $525m, that buys a lot of solar panels in Australia, a typical SA/Qld/WA domestic solar install is between $3k and $5k (after federal subsidies). There would be about 500,000 houses in South Australia. $525m artfully applied could have helped double the solar power households from ~20% to ~40%. Keeping the coal plant open would've allowed far more renewable funding than going the battery/gas power route.

 

[neroden]

Adiggs, you need to be careful about trusting Renew Economy too much, There are typically 4 to 5 different views on a situation and Renew Economy strictly only advocates one view.

South Australia went from an energy 'light on the hill' to an energy 'pariah' when they had black outs and power outages last year. Instead of paying $25million over 3 years to keep a coal power station on No Cookies | The Courier Mail , South Australia had black outs and is now forced into a $550million expense to add gas power and batteries to get back the resilience.

Yeah, don't believe the lies in the Courier Mail. It's owned by News Corp / Murdoch, and as a result stuff published in it is simply false. As a result of relying on fake news, your conclusions are wrong.


Reneweconomy is 100% correct here. They went into some extensive detail about the actual cause of the blackouts. The worthless coal power plants would not have helped one bit. The problems were:
(1) Transmission lines fell over in the storm. Not much you can do about this.
(2) Wind farms were not programmed correctly, because the grid operator is run by idiots. They were designed to turn off when voltage went haywire -- rather than running to stabilize voltage, which they CAN do if programmed to do so. This has apparently been fixed and next time they will stabilize the voltage.
(3) One of the biggest EXISTING gas turbines in the state, Pelican Point, was deliberately left off for market-manipulation reasons by its corrupt owner. It alone would have been quite sufficient to counter the power losses. No coal needed. They chose to leave it off through the entire blackout, because profiteering. This is extensively documented and the South Australian government has opened an investigation.

This is what's really going on in South Australia. The batteries are designed specifically to end dependence on the whims of the corrupt owners of Pelican Point, as far as I can tell. This is the same reason the government is proposing a *government owned* gas plant. A *privately owned* coal plant would have had the same corruption problem as Pelican Point. (I suppose the only reason they aren't nationalizing Pelican Point is that it's kind of obsolete.)

 

[renim]

Neroden,

I'm not claiming that reneweconomy is not factual, I'm claiming they are selective, very selective. Just like a lawyer at a courtroom.

FWIW, the smoking gun about the $25 million is online https://adelaidenowatnewscorpau.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/2565_001.pdf
you can read it if you want.

My conjecture about South Australia opportunity cost to closing down that coal power station, is based on actual Qld solar quotes, typically they were $3.5k to $5 for a 5-6kW size system. That $500 million that the South Australian government is spending on a new gas station and batteries would be sufficient for 100,000 systems of $5,000 each, which literally is 20% of the South Australia house market. So it was a massive opportunity cost.

Perhaps you can find it, but I was watching what reneweconomy would say about the Port Augusta smoking gun letter, and there was nothing (perhaps i missed it)

(FWIW, a few years back, solar in my state accelerated, when the state government organized a group buy of solar that was nil cost to the end owner. Simply put, the group buy cost was fully covered by the federal subsidy.) There is Australian precedent for free solar, and the opportunity cost of closing that coal power station was an additional 20% of households converting to solar.

(solar costs - Australia)

 

[neroden]

Given that the blackout was almost entirely caused by market manipulation by the gas generators, and this is PROVEN, I am not going to believe any claims that giving a subsidy to coal generators -- mostly the same companies doing the market maniplation -- would help. That's the bottom line.

The EXISTING STATION at Pelican Point was a sufficient replacement for the coal generators. But somehow, its owner decided not to turn it on. Huh.

This isn't about technical stuff. This is about control and ownership. If the South Australia government had retained *government ownership* over all the power plants, that would have saved taxpayers an awful lot of money and prevented the blackout. Period.

I didn't want to get into politics, but this is basically about privatization vs. nationalization. The privatizers have done a *lot* of damage and basically looted the taxpayer. Not just in South Australia; everywhere.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Redflow Boss Praises South Australia’s Tesla Battery Deal

More than 90 proposals were submitted for the SA project. If Redflow was among them, the company’s CEO certainly doesn’t have a case of sour grapes regarding the outcome – quite the opposite.

In an opinion piece published on The Advertiser, Mr. Hackett said the project demonstrates the growing maturity of energy storage systems and acts as confirmation batteries will play a critical role in realising the full potential of renewable energy.

“The significance of this contract was not a competition between Tesla and other battery companies. It’s about renewables and energy storage demonstrating their capacity to technically and affordably replace fossil fuels.”

Mr. Hackett said batteries have the potential to entirely change the way energy is distributed and he looks forward to seeing the South Australian project up and running as soon as possible.

“The global energy storage market is huge and is largely untapped. This project will act as a validation point and an accelerant of change,” he said.

Queensland-based Redflow manufactures large-scale battery solutions and the Z-Cell home energy storage system, the smallest flow battery in the world.

For those companies that didn’t get the SA tender guernsey, South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill said yesterday there may be other opportunities on the horizon.

“This is just the beginning of investment in battery technologies, once we prove up that you can write a contract with a renewable energy company, and it’s a firm contract, (that) changes everything,” stated the Premier.

 

[generalenthu]

I have been reading a little more about flow batteries in the utility space and they look very cost competitive. Did anyone here compare the economics of these vs powerpacks. Here is an example.

Flow battery developer ViZn Energy says it can pair solar and storage for 4¢/kWh

 

[TheTalkingMule]

The largest grid storage battery in the world will be a new flow battery installed in a salt mine in Germany.

The future for lithium ion battery storage is likely residential.