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Design Your Solar | Tesla

40kW, 120kW, and 240kW sized systems.
Buy for:
$88,660, $192,360, $345,560 before incentives
$62,062, $134,652, $241,892 with incentives
Or subscribe and pay for what you make:
$0.129, $0.109, $0.099 per kWh

Mod: Units! They're important! --ggr.
 
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I agree. Daytime and the evening peak are the sweet spots in sunny areas. Especially if we switch to EVs en masse with daytime charging.

This project really shows how a little bit of storage can vastly improve solar's usefulness while keeping cost in the reasonable range.

IMHO the space is way too competitive to try this. The BESS was optional, so LADWP could have just taken the $19.97/MWh solar and bought storage from someone else at half the price.

I think we're basically in the ballpark on the numbers, but it bothers me that they don't cross-check. For example:

As you noted, 850 GWh/year through Eland 2's 200 MW AC interconnect is 49% capacity factor. That's too high for the direct solar portion, even in the desert with with tracking and a 1.75-2.0x DC:AC ratio. It seems the 850 must include the stored electricity, or more likely just the initial 100 MW/400 MWh of storage proposed for Eland 2. This leads to first year numbers for Eland2 of:

710 GWh / 40.5% CF - direct solar
146 GWh / +8.3% CF - 400 MWh storage - Total electricity delivered = 856 GWh at 48.8% CF
73 GWh / +4.2% CF - extra 200 MWh storage - Total electricity delivered = 929 GWh at 53% CF

So the panels plus 400 MWh of storage are almost 50% CF, matching what the 8Minute guy said. The additional 200 MWh only gets us to 53% vs. his 60%, though. I couldn't understand how such a small amount of additional storage would have such a big effect on capacity factor. I think he was 'rounding up'.

I also couldn't match these production numbers to the article's claim that LADWP will pay 1.1 billion over the 25 year PPA. That's 44m/year, or 1110 GWh/year at 39.62/MWh. That's for all of Eland 2 and 87.5% of Eland 1, which should be ~1600 GWh in year one and 1400+ by the end of the contract. I tried some different permutation but couldn't get the 1.1 billion number to line up with anything, It's probably just a number he pulled out of context, but loose ends always bug me.
Thanks. I'm glad we're getting a clearer view on this. It is tricky to put the details together from journalist writeups.

I'm not sure why you'd want to potentially waste the battery capacity on filling in the direct solar portion (unless you can do some short cycling and still fill up by the end of the day. It seems something like 40% CF for direct solar is just fine. What is left in the battery, I'd want to discharge at highest prices, which may or may not come while the sun is shining. But I think you're right about the first 400MWh of storage. I recall in an earlier article, they had said that the system with 2 hours of storage would have 50% CF. So clearly adding an extra hour (200MWh) does not get you an extra 10% of CF, only about 4% as you calculate. Is it possible that they could be charging the battery overnight from grid power just to get an extra morning peak cycle? Maybe that would be enough to push to nearly 60%. Otherwise, I remain puzzled about just how they just how they get to 60% CF.

I do wonder if the $1.1B figure is present value, discounted. Or maybe it is just a conservative estimate, say at 80% of expected production.
 
On-line store now open (commercial scale)
Design Your Solar | Tesla

40kW, 120kW, and 240kW sized systems.
Buy for:
$88,660, $192,360, $345,560 before incentives
$62,062, $134,652, $241,892 with incentives
Or subscribe and pay for what you make:
$0.129, $0.109, $0.099 per kWh

Mod: Units! They're important! --ggr.
These seem like good prices for commercial. With incentives, 40kW system is $1.55/W, 120kW is $1.12/W, and 240kW is $1.01/W.

Here is the latest from SEIA.
SMI2019Q2-ES-Fig3.1.png


So the small systems are price at near the recent average for non-residential system. I suspect that the average non-residential system included is larger than 40 kW. So for a small system. To be on par with average likely means it lower cost than other systems of the same size. I'm also not sure of the cost differential between California and the national average. Even so, I don't see any glaring reason to think that these system from Tesla are priced too high. Obviously, Tesla is marketing in standardized package units to cut costs, especially sales and design costs.

I'll be curious to see if this takes off. Worth a try I suppose.
 
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The scale of these projects is now 10x of just a couple years back.

Australian billionaire to back $14 billion solar power supply to Singapore: AFR

Can't seem to find the amount of battery storage, but it's on the GW scale.

The Gigafactory is the product. How much should we charge?
One new detail here is that the cable to Singapore will have 3 GW capacity. I believe they are shooting for 5 to 10 GW of solar. So I think we are looking at near constant load on the cable, so maybe 60 GWh on an average day. I suspect more than 30 GWh of storage may be needed.
 
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Sorry for the investment related post in the Investor Forum, but I think we need to look at how dominant Tesla will be on storage. I've believed that for quite a while, but it's starting to coalesce in reality.

The Gigafactory is the product.

Look at what we have here. Within 1yr Tesla will have the ability to fully manufacture packs at scale capable of 1million miles. That's essentially a freedom factory for any nation other than Russia, the US or other big oil countries. And no one else can do it.

Nations will be lining up to hand Tesla billions. Drop one of these in rural Germany and you have the equivalent of a major oil find except it's fully sustainable and can be running inside a year. And the jobs are just the gravy.

Then you have a foothold for proving services across residential, commercial, industrial, utility. A $1T valuation in 2030 is low IMO.
 
PG&E is making a compelling case for rooftop solar and distributed batteries. Even Elon is tweeting that Superchargers in impacted areas will get Powerpacks and solar.

The dream of distributed power is not dead.
Quotes in question:

Elon Musk on Twitter
"All Tesla Supercharger stations in regions affected by California power outages will have Tesla Powerpacks within next few weeks. Just waiting on permits."​
Elon Musk on Twitter
"Also adding Tesla Solar to our Supercharger stations as fast as possible. Goal is 24/7 clean power with no blackouts."​

He has said this at least once before - and I still see no effort from Tesla to retrofit any storage or solar to existing sites. Very rarely do any new sites include solar, and only sometimes do new sites include storage.

I would not hold your breath waiting for this to happen - but I would love for it to actually happen this time even if the onsite solar for Superchargers is mostly symbolic.

Edit: Tweet from 2+ years ago:
Elon Musk on Twitter
"All Superchargers are being converted to solar/battery power. Over time, almost all will disconnect from the electricity grid."​
 
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Quotes in question:

Elon Musk on Twitter
"All Tesla Supercharger stations in regions affected by California power outages will have Tesla Powerpacks within next few weeks. Just waiting on permits."​
Elon Musk on Twitter
"Also adding Tesla Solar to our Supercharger stations as fast as possible. Goal is 24/7 clean power with no blackouts."​

He has said this at least once before - and I still see no effort from Tesla to retrofit any storage or solar to existing sites. Very rarely do any new sites include solar, and only sometimes do new sites include storage.

I would not hold your breath waiting for this to happen - but I would love for it to actually happen this time even if the onsite solar for Superchargers is mostly symbolic.

Edit: Tweet from 2+ years ago:
Elon Musk on Twitter
"All Superchargers are being converted to solar/battery power. Over time, almost all will disconnect from the electricity grid."​
Given Tesla's cash challenges over the last several years, it is no surprise that adding solar and batteries to Superchargers would be a low priority. However, I think the PG&E issue raises the urgency and visability of this issue. It will not look good on Tesla to have Tesla drivers stranded in events like this.
 
Quotes in question:

Elon Musk on Twitter
"All Tesla Supercharger stations in regions affected by California power outages will have Tesla Powerpacks within next few weeks. Just waiting on permits."​
Elon Musk on Twitter
"Also adding Tesla Solar to our Supercharger stations as fast as possible. Goal is 24/7 clean power with no blackouts."​

He has said this at least once before - and I still see no effort from Tesla to retrofit any storage or solar to existing sites. Very rarely do any new sites include solar, and only sometimes do new sites include storage.

I would not hold your breath waiting for this to happen - but I would love for it to actually happen this time even if the onsite solar for Superchargers is mostly symbolic.

Edit: Tweet from 2+ years ago:
Elon Musk on Twitter
"All Superchargers are being converted to solar/battery power. Over time, almost all will disconnect from the electricity grid."​
Agreed it's been said before, but it seems with Maxwell and Hibar that they will finally be able to have the throughput of cells they need to do all the different projects they've had in the queue.
 
I apologize if I've come to the wrong thread and missed out on any specific conversations that might have answered this but:

Musk stated they plan on getting to 1TWh of battery production. At 28GWh of production today, Panasonic wavering on future investment, and (to my understanding) no known currently available statistics on LG Chem's current and planned ramp 2170 throughput, that leaves 972GWh to the imagination as to how it'll be generated.

I did read about that mining consortium involving CATL, LG Chem, Tesla, and Daimler (1) regarding securing rights to a mine in Indonesia for a total of $4 billion in investments. Reading the (now old) "Planned 2020 Gigafactory Production" sheet from Tesla in 2013 (2), if Tesla had to share this mine with all of those companies, assuming each company gets equal share of the raw resources, that mine must be able to annually produce 4 TWh of battery resources, which seems unlikely given the world production just a few years ago was under 35GWh, and it's odd that since so many companies are involved that we haven't heard any leaks backing this idea up. It'll also supposedly take 3 years to build.

Tesla would have to multiply cell production 35x current levels to get to the 1TWh level. The mine supposedly being looked into has high amounts of cobalt and nickel, but really 35x the worlds supply since 2013? I mean it could... be it seems unlikely.

In terms of cars: (I suppose this is OT for this thread)

The new Battery technology, assuming this relies on Jeff Dahn's recently published research, allows for a 500,000 mile power train to last to 1,000,000 but according to this video (3), the tested formulation has more cobalt than Tesla’s current batteries which goes against Elon's stated goals to eventually get rid of cobalt entirely. Assuming that the battery efficiency is doubled, that still means Tesla would need to increase battery production by 17x of current levels. Spit balling here, Tesla also could cut the battery count in half, get the same efficiency, use 50% less cobalt, have the same range, and increase their profit margin dramatically(?).

With the Gigafactory originally slated to make 35GWh of batteries a year for 500,000 vehicles, lets assume 15% organic growth for Model S/3/X in 2020, based on the high end of Tesla's 2019 guidance of 400,000, that's 460,000 cars not including the Model Y. With the Model Y existing in a market at least 2x bigger than the Model 3, Tesla is going to need to double their battery production in less than 12 months if they expect to ramp the Model Y on time. This goes at odds of waiting 3 years to build a mine in Indonesia. This doesn't even take into account the truck/semi/roadster, and of course, energy storage.​

In terms of energy storage:

It's obvious (to me at least) the reason we haven't seen large GWh projects from Tesla is because they're starved for batteries. The amount of batteries the semi, truck, Y, and roadster will need is huge and in order for energy not to continue to be the forgotten child of Tesla forever, they're going a major shift-change in battery production. Frankly, I want Tesla to scale energy storage to levels unheard of so they are looked at more as an energy company instead of just an auto company.

While we do have battery investor day coming next year, does anyone have any guesses on how Tesla is going to go from 28GWh to 1000GWh?

Mods - feel free to move/delete if I posted this in the incorrect thread.

Sources:
1. Tesla A Part Of Huge Consortium For Nickel And Cobalt In Indonesia
2. https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/gigafactory.pdf
3.
 
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does anyone have any guesses on how Tesla is going to go from 28GWh to 1000GWh?
Hibar + Grohmann + Maxwell dry electrodes + zero Cobalt + alien dreadnought. Elon will announce this at the battery and power train investor day in ~6 mo. Because Tesla have huge and crucially flexible demand (they can ramp power packs according to supply), they can place hard orders for all the necessary materials - eventually, mining companies will fill the gap.
 
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I think it's safe to say the entire world is underestimating the demand for and value of battery storage.

Power Is Trading Below Zero in Middle America Amid Strong Winds
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

60% of middle America's demand is being met by wind today. The difference between the average wholesale price and today's negative price is available for capture.
 
I think it's safe to say the entire world is underestimating the demand for and value of battery storage.

Power Is Trading Below Zero in Middle America Amid Strong Winds
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

60% of middle America's demand is being met by wind today. The difference between the average wholesale price and today's negative price is available for capture.
Interesting, judging by the price map, it looks like there are network congestion issues. The greater Joplin area has prices above $100/MWh while surround areas have negative prices. So there are problems getting the power where it is needed most.

It is possible that using distributed batteries as virtual transmission could help resolve the congestion issues, and do so at a lower price than adding more network capacity.

In any case, there is a more complex set of issues here than just having a lot of wind power.