Tesla Energy now starting to sell Powerwalls in California

[ecarfan]

I've got more info from Tesla Energy. At this time only the 7kWh "daily cycle" Powerwall is available and it is only compatible with the SolarEdge 7600 series inverter. Around the middle of this year they expect other inverter manufacturers to offer models compatible with the Powerwall and Tesla Energy will start offering the 10kW "backup only" Powerwall which is AC only (the 7kWh Powerwall is DC in/out) and more expensive (which we already knew) and requires a "critical loads" panel to be installed, so a more costly installation.
Since I want a 10kW solar system, and the SolarEdge 7600 inverter is limited to 7.6kW, I am going to wait a few months and hope that a 10kW Powerwall-compatible inverter comes on the market.
In any case, I am happy that Tesla Energy is starting to sell Powerwalls in California!

 

[Ampster]

This is probably the right thread for it if he's around...

@WK057 - Is your Radeon equipment compatible with powerwall? I have some similar components and figured you might have researched it.

I have a single Outback Radian and it operates on 48v DC not the 300 plus volts that the Powerwall operates at.

 

[Ampster]

I've got more info from Tesla Energy. At this time only the 7kWh "daily cycle" Powerwall is available and it is only compatible with the SolarEdge 7600 series inverter. Around the middle of this year they expect other inverter manufacturers to offer models compatible with the Powerwall and Tesla Energy will start offering the 10kW "backup only" Powerwall which is AC only (the 7kWh Powerwall is DC in/out)
........

Check your facts. The only way a PowerWall could be AC is if it had an integrated inverter.

 

[Ampster]

1/1/2018 is an important date for California. After that date, new solar will have time of use pricing. Presumably existing solar will continue with existing net metering

I am not sure it is an important date at all. Most solar instalations benefit from TOU rates so if they do any analysis and understand the rate, they would most likely already move to TOU rates. As I have explained in other threads, I chose TOU rates before I had solar installed. Solar can not be intalled without a NEM agreement if you want to be grid tied.

 

[miimura]

I am not sure it is an important date at all. Most solar instalations benefit from TOU rates so if they do any analysis and understand the rate, they would most likely already move to TOU rates. As I have explained in other threads, I chose TOU rates before I had solar installed. Solar can not be intalled without a NEM agreement if you want to be grid tied.

Existing PG&E NEM customers are also guaranteed 20 annual true-ups from initial interconnect regardless of whatever follow-on tariff they come up with in the next couple years. I assume Edison has similar language in their existing NEM tariff due to shared CPUC oversight.

 

[K-MTG]

Can the 7 kWh version function as a backup in the event of a power outage?

 

[HankLloydRight]

Can the 7 kWh version function as a backup in the event of a power outage?

That's what I'd like to know also. I'm not sure I see why each pack can't be used for either scenario based on actual need. If all I want is emergency backup in case of a power cut, why can't I use the 7kWh version?

For people that qualified for a powerwall from the referral program, what additional real costs would we expect to shell out? Assume no existing solar installation. At least an inverter, a "critical loads" panel plus installation. So are we looking at $1000, $3000 or $5000 cash layout?

thanks.

 

[Zroiron]

I've got more info from Tesla Energy. At this time only the 7kWh "daily cycle" Powerwall is available and it is only compatible with the SolarEdge 7600 series inverter. Around the middle of this year they expect other inverter manufacturers to offer models compatible with the Powerwall and Tesla Energy will start offering the 10kW "backup only" Powerwall which is AC only (the 7kWh Powerwall is DC in/out) and more expensive (which we already knew) and requires a "critical loads" panel to be installed, so a more costly installation.
Since I want a 10kW solar system, and the SolarEdge 7600 inverter is limited to 7.6kW, I am going to wait a few months and hope that a 10kW Powerwall-compatible inverter comes on the market.
In any case, I am happy that Tesla Energy is starting to sell Powerwalls in California!

How does the PowerWall compare to the Juicebox? I heard about Juicebox at a Solar NV meeting las night. If PowerWall is only compatible with Solaredge inverters right now, I'm screwed. We have Enecsys inverters (they went out of business in the US).

 

[Ampster]

How does the PowerWall compare to the Juicebox? I heard about Juicebox at a Solar NV meeting las night. If PowerWall is only compatible with Solaredge inverters right now, I'm screwed. We have Enecsys inverters (they went out of business in the US).

Totally different devices. One, the Juicebox, is a charging station. The other, the Powerwall, is a battery. It would be like comparing an extension cord to a water heater.

 

[ecarfan]

Check your facts. The only way a PowerWall could be AC is if it had an integrated inverter.

I posted what I was told by the Tesla Energy employee who contacted me this week. You can decide whether or not to believe that person or not.

 

[Ampster]

Okay, now I understand that it is hearsay. For me it is not a mater of choosing to believe him, the statement doesn't make sense unless there is a clarification.
How could something that has been touted as a battery, run on AC, without an inverter? This won't be the first time a Tesla employees got something wrong, or confused an issue. It is ironic, since the battle between Nikolai Tesla and Thomas Edison was between AC and DC.

 

[electracity]

I've got more info from Tesla Energy. At this time only the 7kWh "daily cycle" Powerwall is available and it is only compatible with the SolarEdge 7600 series inverter. Around the middle of this year they expect other inverter manufacturers to offer models compatible with the Powerwall and Tesla Energy will start offering the 10kW "backup only" Powerwall which is AC only (the 7kWh Powerwall is DC in/out) and more expensive (which we already knew) and requires a "critical loads" panel to be installed, so a more costly installation.
Since I want a 10kW solar system, and the SolarEdge 7600 inverter is limited to 7.6kW, I am going to wait a few months and hope that a 10kW Powerwall-compatible inverter comes on the market.
In any case, I am happy that Tesla Energy is starting to sell Powerwalls in California!

Just about everyone with the 7kwh battery will want a subpanel too. Otherwise the system won't work without the grid side energized. The installed cost is going to typically be in the $1000/kwh range before incentives.

 

[GSP]

Okay, now I understand that it is hearsay. For me it is not a mater of choosing to believe him, the statement doesn't make sense unless there is a clarification.
How could something that has been touted as a battery, run on AC, without an inverter? This won't be the first time a Tesla employees got something wrong, or confused an issue. It is ironic, since the battle between Nikolai Tesla and Thomas Edison was between AC and DC.

We are not talking about 12 volt car batteries here. The Tesla Powerwall and Powerpacks all include power electronics, which consist of a high voltage, high current, ultra high efficiency DC-DC converter. They also have a liquid thermal management system, battery management system, and many other components.

It is not hard to imagine that Tesla saw a need for integrated inverters, instead of DC-DC converters, in the "backup" version of the Powerwall. We will have to wait and see what Tesla announces for "powerwall 2.0."

GSP

 

[ecarfan]

Okay, now I understand that it is hearsay. For me it is not a mater of choosing to believe him, the statement doesn't make sense unless there is a clarification.
How could something that has been touted as a battery, run on AC, without an inverter? This won't be the first time a Tesla employees got something wrong, or confused an issue. It is ironic, since the battle between Nikolai Tesla and Thomas Edison was between AC and DC.

I started this thread and was very clear from the beginning that I was passing on information I received from Tesla Energy. For you to just now realize that my information is "hearsay" is surprising. Obviously I am not a Tesla Energy employee, nor have I ever claimed to be.
The 7kWh Powerwall is DC in/out and is placed in the system between the panels and the DC/AC inverter. The 10kWh Powerwall is AC in/out and is placed on the AC side of the inverter. The latter is more expensive and is a more complex installation, requiring a separate panel be created that only contains the household circuits that the 10kWh Powerwall drive during a power outage.
Your confusion seems to come from the fact that you make assumptions about the Powerwall products, assumptions that are not based on statements from Tesla.
I do not claim to have all the details about Powerwall specs and installation, nor am I an electrician. I am simply trying to share information based on my phone conversation and emails with a Tesla Energy employee.

 

[Ampster]

You are correct, I should have reread your original post. In retrospect my comments do appear to be "shooting the messenger". As @GSP, speculates it is possible that v.2 of the Powerwall will include an integrated inverter. I will await that announcement with interest.

 

[electracity]

You are correct, I should have reread your original post. In retrospect my comments do appear to be "shooting the messenger". As @GSP, speculates it is possible that v.2 of the Powerwall will include an integrated inverter. I will await that announcement with interest.

A 10kwh powerwall that connects to AC could be where Tesla Energy provides the complete solution, including software. No need for the high efficiency of charging from DC unless the battery is cycled many days per year. Plus entering the market with this type of battery avoids direct competition with solar sellers and inverter makers.

Tesla Energy without a customer facing solution just doesn't feel right to me. A software geek with a battery business just doesn't supply batteries for other to implement the complete solution.

 

[Ampster]

A 10kwh powerwall that connects to AC could be where Tesla Energy provides the complete solution, including software. No need for the high efficiency of charging from DC unless the battery is cycled many days per year. Plus entering the market with this type of battery avoids direct competition with solar sellers and inverter makers.

Tesla Energy without a customer facing solution just doesn't feel right to me. A software geek with a battery business just doesn't supply batteries for other to implement the complete solution.

Yes, I have speculated on other threads that I didn't think that Musk would choose to compete with inverter manufacturers. However since the March 2015 Powerwall announcement there have only been three manufacturers that have announced inverters compatible with the high voltage DC buss of the Powerwall. Of those, I don't know how many are actually available in the marketplace. An integrated solution that has simple installation is needed and if the inverter partners can't deliver I can see Tesla stepping into that space. As with the Model X seat manufacturing, they have repeatedly shown they are more than happy to vertically integrate when suppliers disappoint.

Also as you have pointed out for backup applications, a critical loads panel will be needed, and perhaps the switching for this will be integrated with the inverter. I would speculate that they will keep the high voltage DC buss because of efficiency of inverting to AC.

 

[K-MTG]

The installed cost is going to typically be in the $1000/kwh range before incentives.

Where can I find information about the incentives?

 

[electracity]

Where can I find information about the incentives?

Since you have a solarcity PPA, ask solarcity. The ITC may apply, and solarcity will eventually offer you a fee to use the battery sometimes.

 

[Merrill]

If I have to buy their inverter to make the Powerwall work I will not be doing it.