According to Peter Rive, Solarcity sells and installs 7kwh for $4k. I think they are taking solar+storage orders first with the current limited supply given the preorders in the queue.
Tesla Energy now starting to sell Powerwalls in California
- Thread starter ecarfan
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Powerwall Tesla Energy
Ulmo
Active Member
Since you are buyers, I need to preface my post with: I am not an EE or electrician*, and additionally do not have intimate (inside or professional) knowledge of which I speak. I am merely stating what I think is correct based upon my close attentiveness to this topic. Here goes:
That is the limitation that wk057 also has; he chose the lower voltage (~48VDC), and charges his batteries by sub-unit. That's because that's what was on the market at the time. As he has stated, therefore it is not compatible with PowerWall. There was a point at which he was trying to decide which way to go, and he made his decision (very shortly before Tesla Energy was revealed).
From an uninformed eye, PowerWall's voltage level looks like something of an evolution in household energy production and storage, for which the inverters haven't caught up yet, but that everyone seems to say will be an improvement in efficiency when they are designed for it; even wk057 said the same.
- - - Updated - - -
Yes
The real question is if the inverters, switches, installations and regulations allow backup. Monopolies get REALLY jealous when you want to compete with them even a little, and generally speaking powerful entities (utilities, government) hate it when they give up control over you (like forcing blackouts, etc., to manipulate you, e.g., Enron), so often it's easier to completely cancel utility service and go off grid, which is actually not easy at all because it costs so much more to get cloudy day backup levels, and you're almost forced to get a massive expensive system.
The goal is also yes (for backup fully integrated), but it will be a while before the monopolies and governments are put in their place and the equipment finds a marketplace to allow it. Even just backup is expensive even if it's not entirely off-grid, because you have to load calculate and sequence (serialize) use for undersized systems (and almost all advertised PowerWall installations are undersized). The position Tesla put the inverter manufacturers in is tough: design new equipment for new specs and new use cases for a new marketplace where the old utilities and governments are against allowing its installation; who the hell would make a profit in that? Of course, it's a massive growth sector, so anybody with brains, brawn and money can do a great job; perhaps they're all doing the development now. But at what cost and profitability level? Maybe not enough. And Tesla closing up all of its development information gives the appearance of a sinking fleet of companies (in the name of corporate "professionalism" --- you should see the tweets their new top staffers (sourced from the old world themselves) post!)
But mountainmen have been putting in backup (with dirty energy) for ages --- so the ability of throwing enough money at an electrician to do all this is definitely yes; the question becomes how well it will perform, its limitations, its comparative cost effectiveness with waiting 5 years to do it, etc. Someone else will have to answer that, as I do NOT have that info.
It's odd ... right now seems more like "market research" than development at the big alternative energy companies.
* I did attempt to go to school for both, but was rebuffed at the first for money (after starting attendance) and the second for race ("demographic balance").
That is the limitation that wk057 also has; he chose the lower voltage (~48VDC), and charges his batteries by sub-unit. That's because that's what was on the market at the time. As he has stated, therefore it is not compatible with PowerWall. There was a point at which he was trying to decide which way to go, and he made his decision (very shortly before Tesla Energy was revealed).
From an uninformed eye, PowerWall's voltage level looks like something of an evolution in household energy production and storage, for which the inverters haven't caught up yet, but that everyone seems to say will be an improvement in efficiency when they are designed for it; even wk057 said the same.
- - - Updated - - -
Yes
The real question is if the inverters, switches, installations and regulations allow backup. Monopolies get REALLY jealous when you want to compete with them even a little, and generally speaking powerful entities (utilities, government) hate it when they give up control over you (like forcing blackouts, etc., to manipulate you, e.g., Enron), so often it's easier to completely cancel utility service and go off grid, which is actually not easy at all because it costs so much more to get cloudy day backup levels, and you're almost forced to get a massive expensive system.
The goal is also yes (for backup fully integrated), but it will be a while before the monopolies and governments are put in their place and the equipment finds a marketplace to allow it. Even just backup is expensive even if it's not entirely off-grid, because you have to load calculate and sequence (serialize) use for undersized systems (and almost all advertised PowerWall installations are undersized). The position Tesla put the inverter manufacturers in is tough: design new equipment for new specs and new use cases for a new marketplace where the old utilities and governments are against allowing its installation; who the hell would make a profit in that? Of course, it's a massive growth sector, so anybody with brains, brawn and money can do a great job; perhaps they're all doing the development now. But at what cost and profitability level? Maybe not enough. And Tesla closing up all of its development information gives the appearance of a sinking fleet of companies (in the name of corporate "professionalism" --- you should see the tweets their new top staffers (sourced from the old world themselves) post!)
But mountainmen have been putting in backup (with dirty energy) for ages --- so the ability of throwing enough money at an electrician to do all this is definitely yes; the question becomes how well it will perform, its limitations, its comparative cost effectiveness with waiting 5 years to do it, etc. Someone else will have to answer that, as I do NOT have that info.
It's odd ... right now seems more like "market research" than development at the big alternative energy companies.
* I did attempt to go to school for both, but was rebuffed at the first for money (after starting attendance) and the second for race ("demographic balance").
Last edited:
Ampster
Active Member
Just some perspective that systems like WK057 and I put in are behind the meter so the big monopolies have no say about whether they are installed. All that is needed is an electrical building permit.
You should clarify that statement since all Net Metering installations are also "behind the meter". The key point is whether you feed into the grid. The Outback Radian can be configured with different grid connections. One connection is grid interactive (surplus solar goes to the grid) and the other is grid draw only (just a backup battery charger). If you only draw from the grid then the utility has no say in the matter.
Ampster
Active Member
Yes, that is a more complete description. The Net Metering agreement we sign does have some language about modifications to "the facility", but I have interpreted that to not apply to my system since I have not cofigured the Radian inverter to feed to the grid.
I have gone through the mental exercise for how I would want to add solar and storage to my house when Net Metering is not attractive or available any more. I would leave my Enphase micro-inverter system untouched, but add solar and storage that feeds only the sub-panel that has most of my household loads. Since the non-interactive grid input on the Radian is programmable, I could monitor the current flow at the meter and have it run the battery charger as needed during Part-Peak hours to zero the net energy flow and then let the original solar system feed into the grid during peak hours or when the batteries are full or forecast to be full. It would require a light-weight CPU running all the time to monitor what the meter sees (or reports directly) and modulate the charger current about every minute.
Ulmo
Active Member
That is a more advanced state of knowledge of the present situation than I have; it used to be that the utility didn't even want your stuff* BEHIND (from their perspective) the meter, because (they made up a stupid excuse) "it MIGHT leak out to the grid". They made sure to get their engineers to make this is relevant in many ways, such as disconnects for grid line work, wave form leakage despite energy flowing in to home, accidental exportation due to equipment failure, misconfiguration, misinstallation; and now what I am likely misinterpreting as your entirely new to me claim that just "attempting" to target no export = compliant with "not exporting to grid". If ANY of that new information is true, then it's good news to me.
How good is the electrical separation of export in that equipment? Is it actually so good that the utility is comfortable and ok with it? Or is there now more leniency with battery exportation (such as it merely becoming a legal tariff issue rather than a technological one)? If it is no longer a technical requirement from the utility to not expect to the grid, then your mere "attempt" to never export makes 100% sense with respect to it being a legal and political rather than electrical concern. I'd be very pleased, and it would mean batteries are easier to install. That would only be a good thing.
* They (the "utilities") re-asked the question (with the weight of provisioning power) separately for solar and storage despite the electrons not caring about the difference, making me bringing it up again for batteries relevant (even though we all said it made no sense for the utilities to make up ridiculous negative garbage like solar being different than battery at the time decades ago).
Last edited:
My solar installation uses Enphase micro-inverters and there are no disconnects anywhere between the panels and the meter - only standard 20A 240V circuit breakers. So, my utility, PG&E, is at least comfortable with solar inverters that sync to the grid and shut down in any out-of-spec situation. The Outback Radian I mentioned has one grid input that is simply a battery charger (programmable current rectifier), so I think it is inherently a one-way device. Therefore, no leakage of battery energy is possible through that port. Obviously, if you want to implement this kind of Grid-Assisted Battery Storage system you do have to design it properly.
So to get back on the topic I started this thread about...
My Tesla Energy contact, and the solar company electrician I am working with, both tell me that the SolarEdge 7600 series inverter that needs to be used with a 7kWh Powerwall is not quite ready. SolarEdge is still working out the details of the firmware needed for Powerwall comparability. So my solar installation is on hold for a bit. It sounds like it will be a few more months.
My impression is that Tesla Energy is ready to sell a 7kWh Powerwall to the solar company I am working with, but the inverter is not ready. I don't want to add the Powerwall later, after the solar system is installed at my house, so I am going to wait and see how it goes.
Tesla Energy did tell me that the 10kWh Powerwall model will be going on sale this year. It is not currently for sale.
My Tesla Energy contact, and the solar company electrician I am working with, both tell me that the SolarEdge 7600 series inverter that needs to be used with a 7kWh Powerwall is not quite ready. SolarEdge is still working out the details of the firmware needed for Powerwall comparability. So my solar installation is on hold for a bit. It sounds like it will be a few more months.
My impression is that Tesla Energy is ready to sell a 7kWh Powerwall to the solar company I am working with, but the inverter is not ready. I don't want to add the Powerwall later, after the solar system is installed at my house, so I am going to wait and see how it goes.
Tesla Energy did tell me that the 10kWh Powerwall model will be going on sale this year. It is not currently for sale.
I would assume that the Battery Storage interconnect agreement with the utility would stipulate what Scenarios/Strategies are allowed. They may disallow energy flow to the grid in excess of what the solar system would do without the battery. A slight modification of that would be that the peak feed-in from the battery may not exceed the peak feed-in of the solar system alone. In the second case, you could continue the maximum feed in by discharging the batteries through to the end of the peak rate window. I think a typical PowerWall install would not be able to do anything close to that due to the typical sizes of solar systems and the battery capacity of the PowerWall.
Personally, I would be satisfied with the battery powering all my household loads during the peak hours and allowing all the solar to go to the grid. A "grid assisted" system could do this without connecting the battery inverter to the grid at all.
Personally, I would be satisfied with the battery powering all my household loads during the peak hours and allowing all the solar to go to the grid. A "grid assisted" system could do this without connecting the battery inverter to the grid at all.
This seemed to go unnoticed, but he is not referring to the charger.
There is a battery system availablecalled juicebox, which frequently, including in this case, gets confused with the charging station.
I have gotten a quote on the juicebox. it is a nice system. has cellular connectivity and works with existing inverters. I believe it is a 10kwh system if i recall.
It is actually shipping and could be installed next week if i decide to go forward with it.
We have a 2014 3.8kw system installed with Solaredge inverter. Unfortunately, Solaredge is only supporting the current 7600SE as upgrade path to Storedge. Not quite sure why this is because the add on modules of the autotransformer is completely separate and the inverter 'guts' all look about the same -- I would be surprised if the CPU/firmware aren't built off the same code.
So this means for now the need to buy an entirely new inverter to upgrade to battery backup.
That said, will wait and see if they will expand this to other models on solaredge line and if someone smart here figures a way to use EV batteries to hook into system instead of needing the powerwall at all. I say this because most of the time I arrive home in the evening with 20+ kwH available on my EV and could use between 6-9pm in peak times --- why not use that instead of buying a powerwall at all?
So this means for now the need to buy an entirely new inverter to upgrade to battery backup.
That said, will wait and see if they will expand this to other models on solaredge line and if someone smart here figures a way to use EV batteries to hook into system instead of needing the powerwall at all. I say this because most of the time I arrive home in the evening with 20+ kwH available on my EV and could use between 6-9pm in peak times --- why not use that instead of buying a powerwall at all?
Similar threads
