Honestly the credit has done what it was supposed to, get electric cars on the map and in the mix. What we need is more focus on a charging infrastructure that supports multiple brands, only way it will become more mainstream.
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Tesla EV tax credit extension
- Thread starter delfonique
- Start date
My hats off to Tesla for all of their groundbreaking innovations but I don't understand the controversy. The tax credit applies to each manufacturer equally so that Honda, Ford, etc.. will still receive the same benefit that Tesla has thus preserving the incentive for EVs. Tesla obviously made hay with their subsidy and in fact chose to use it up predominantly on $125,000 vehicles while GM wasted it on the BOLT. In addition they both assuredly baked the tax credit into their pricing to begin with. The reality is they just put that $7500 on top of the price and let the taxpayers pay for it. So now they will have to compete with the other OEMs who are just now rolling out their EVs.
I love my Tesla (that I purchased used) and am convinced that on balance the pluses of EVs outweigh the limitations of ICE vehicles. I also happen to be one of those "evil" capitalists that thinks EVs should stand on their own merits, not on the backs of the taxpayers. They should be affordable for everyone, not just the wealthy and we will never get there without good old fashioned competition driving innovation and lower costs.
I love my Tesla (that I purchased used) and am convinced that on balance the pluses of EVs outweigh the limitations of ICE vehicles. I also happen to be one of those "evil" capitalists that thinks EVs should stand on their own merits, not on the backs of the taxpayers. They should be affordable for everyone, not just the wealthy and we will never get there without good old fashioned competition driving innovation and lower costs.
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Because the entire point of the subsidy was to advance the EV market. It should have been a single bucket to encourage all makers to rapidly move into EVs. Now it's actually rewarding companies more who waited on the sidelines because they face lower cost curves. Then you have the Volvo nonsense where they will be able to double dip the credit.
I would have said "the first 1 million EVs period" get's the full credit. Making a public investment into a new technology is hardly anti-capitalist. If we want to go there, how much do we spend every year securing oil access or international trade?
I agree with you regarding subsidies, I said Evil capitalist.. not Croney Capitalist! 
As much as I detest subsidies I have to say that the EV subsidy was well thought out, everyone get's their 200,000 whether they choose to be first, last or not at all. By sitting back and waiting all the other OEMs risked being behind in the EV race. That's definitely not Elon Musk's style but that would be the way an outfit like Ford or Toyota would behave. I am no auto manufacturer but I know a thing or two about selling expensive vehicles vs not so expensive (former Cessna Aircraft dealer and Ford dealer) and rest assured the vast majority of New Tesla buyers at $125,000 buy for only two reasons... because they want to and they can, not a $7,500 tax credit. On the other hand a $50,000 Mustang buyer would be heavily swayed by the $7,500 tax credit. But there are other factors, like buying from an OEM that has been around for over 100 years, and has a worldwide sales and service network to take care of them after the sale.
I want to emphasize I love my Tesla, and I hope they survive, innovate and go on to make billions of dollars! That is what makes this country great, just not convinced the tax credit is necessary to make that happen.
As much as I detest subsidies I have to say that the EV subsidy was well thought out, everyone get's their 200,000 whether they choose to be first, last or not at all. By sitting back and waiting all the other OEMs risked being behind in the EV race. That's definitely not Elon Musk's style but that would be the way an outfit like Ford or Toyota would behave. I am no auto manufacturer but I know a thing or two about selling expensive vehicles vs not so expensive (former Cessna Aircraft dealer and Ford dealer) and rest assured the vast majority of New Tesla buyers at $125,000 buy for only two reasons... because they want to and they can, not a $7,500 tax credit. On the other hand a $50,000 Mustang buyer would be heavily swayed by the $7,500 tax credit. But there are other factors, like buying from an OEM that has been around for over 100 years, and has a worldwide sales and service network to take care of them after the sale. I want to emphasize I love my Tesla, and I hope they survive, innovate and go on to make billions of dollars! That is what makes this country great, just not convinced the tax credit is necessary to make that happen.
"Canada officially bans Tesla from any EV rebates and incentives".
https://ww.electrek.co/2019/04/17/canadas-electric-car-incentive-tesla-ineligible/
It appears that Canada 'trashed Tesla back in April. Is this correct? I imagine Elon is not happy about this either. Personally, I think both the US and Canada are wrong to pull subsidies from Tesla as its an unfair advantage to Tesla.
Thanks for the apology and yes, I'd rather see politics discussed elsewhere. Love my Tesla and appreciate this forum.
https://ww.electrek.co/2019/04/17/canadas-electric-car-incentive-tesla-ineligible/
It appears that Canada 'trashed Tesla back in April. Is this correct? I imagine Elon is not happy about this either. Personally, I think both the US and Canada are wrong to pull subsidies from Tesla as its an unfair advantage to Tesla.
Thanks for the apology and yes, I'd rather see politics discussed elsewhere. Love my Tesla and appreciate this forum.
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The phase out of the tax credit will have some impact on the Model 3. It won’t impact the S/X market. It may impact the Model Y market if a worthy competitor comes along.
But if EVs like the Jaguar I-Pace keep coming out as Tesla alternatives I don’t think Tesla will have much to worry about. Nobody is going to buy an overpriced EV with a non-competitive range just to save $7,500. Jaguar’s abysmal sales figures pretty much confirm this.
The opportunity is there for other manufacturers to seize the moment and take advantage of the $7,500 subsidy. Whether they will do it is yet to be seen.
But if EVs like the Jaguar I-Pace keep coming out as Tesla alternatives I don’t think Tesla will have much to worry about. Nobody is going to buy an overpriced EV with a non-competitive range just to save $7,500. Jaguar’s abysmal sales figures pretty much confirm this.
The opportunity is there for other manufacturers to seize the moment and take advantage of the $7,500 subsidy. Whether they will do it is yet to be seen.
No issue with your feelings. But, lets play fair. Remove oil companies depletion and exploration credits also. Seems like these are regular costs of doing business, and do not need special protections.
Oil depletion allowance - Wikipedia
Oil: A big investment with big tax breaks
And I would argue that EVs mean more to the future of this country than big oil. Especially when the latest news says American car company Tesla is far ahead of the other EV producers in the world. As shown by anemic efficiencies of some companies (cough, Porsche) and delay of introduction of some companies competing products (Mercedes EQC) to the US market.
And why should the US not do what it can to let Tesla push it's lead in the world market. After all we have had Presidents that sold American jets (Eisenhower, Kennedy), and transportation aircraft (Reagan, Clinton, Bush 1), and that worked out well for US Aerospace.
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Looks like Mercedes also is rethinking the EQC introduction to the US market. Mercedes-Benz is delaying the US release of its Tesla rival by a year
Loit
Member
If we're gonna talk about tax credits... let's talk about subsidies.
The US oil industry receives 4.6 Billion a YEAR in subsidies. This does not include costs for military intervention or financial aid to foreign governments or the climate cost - which if totaled, gives global fossil fuel subsidies a total of $5.3 trillion in 2015 alone.
Sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ion-to-climate-change-is-in-the-u-s-tax-code/
How Large Are Global Fossil Fuel Subsidies? - ScienceDirect
The US oil industry receives 4.6 Billion a YEAR in subsidies. This does not include costs for military intervention or financial aid to foreign governments or the climate cost - which if totaled, gives global fossil fuel subsidies a total of $5.3 trillion in 2015 alone.
Sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ion-to-climate-change-is-in-the-u-s-tax-code/
How Large Are Global Fossil Fuel Subsidies? - ScienceDirect
IMO - Tesla is being penalized for being successful and 'new comers' are being rewarded. It should not matter which EV you buy. If the point of the incentive was to get more EV's on the road... the brand's success should not matter.
I don't think the Administration has issued an official position on this and I don't trust the media's 'hearsay'. The Administration is apparently upset with Tesla and GM for opening new plants in China (and others in Mexico) so they can bypass US environmental regulations and use cheap labor. Tesla is also planning to open a German battery plant that the Administration evidently wanted in the US. Maybe the Administration wants to encourage auto companies to open factories in America to support the environment and US economy? Might have something to do with it?
"Earlier this week, President Trump threatened to take away General Motors’ subsidies for electric cars in retaliation for its recently announced plan to shutter five plants and lay off 15 percent of its workforce. The threat has alarmed not just GM but other companies that produce electric vehicles, as well as those who believe reducing carbon emissions is an imperative." The Hill - 12/04/18
I wonder why Canada cut out Tesla though...
I don't think the Administration has issued an official position on this and I don't trust the media's 'hearsay'. The Administration is apparently upset with Tesla and GM for opening new plants in China (and others in Mexico) so they can bypass US environmental regulations and use cheap labor. Tesla is also planning to open a German battery plant that the Administration evidently wanted in the US. Maybe the Administration wants to encourage auto companies to open factories in America to support the environment and US economy? Might have something to do with it?
"Earlier this week, President Trump threatened to take away General Motors’ subsidies for electric cars in retaliation for its recently announced plan to shutter five plants and lay off 15 percent of its workforce. The threat has alarmed not just GM but other companies that produce electric vehicles, as well as those who believe reducing carbon emissions is an imperative." The Hill - 12/04/18
I wonder why Canada cut out Tesla though...
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Side Note: Previously, I had used the argument that EV's got their power from electric plants which increased the carbon footprint anyway. After driving my X for a couple of months, I am convinced. Heck with the carbon footprint causes and effects argument which is still being debated... I live in a smog filled valley that would have clean fresh air to breath if ICEs were gone. IMO - That alone is worth subsidies to encourage more people to buy EVs. Politics aside, Elon has made this 'conservative' an EV advocate and he deserves help to continue his mission!
Maybe there should be an ICE buyback program? Trade in an older ICE on a new or used EV and get a $5000 bonus incentive. Then crush and recycle the ICE.
Maybe there should be an ICE buyback program? Trade in an older ICE on a new or used EV and get a $5000 bonus incentive. Then crush and recycle the ICE.
They (we) didn’t. The details were worked out. The model 3 Eplus is eligible for the 5000 federal grant. Some provinces also have incentives. Bc and Quebec.
Yeah, I think the President has made it pretty clear that he doesn’t support the credit extension, and the bill is no longer being submitted.
In blow to Tesla and GM, federal electric car tax credit not extended - Roadshow
As for opening plants in China and Germany, I suppose the White House may see that as a negative. But you have to give Tesla credit for being an American car company that up until this quarter produced every single car right here in California. It was inevitable that the Chinese market was only going to expand once cars were being produced there locally. They are not importing those cars back to North America, they are building them for the local market to avoid the tariff wars.
No company can build every car to satisfy world demand exclusively in the US. But Tesla gets significant props for doing what no other company has successfully done for many decades - build a successful new car company right here in our own country.
I too am an EV advocate, they are just superior machines, fewer moving parts, more reliable, etc.. but in Kansas we don't have polluted valleys and ICE crusher programs (Cash for Klunkers) just drive up the price of used cars to people who are already struggling to afford a reliable car to get to work every day. It's the old unintended consequences thing. As far as I am concerned, if a local municipality wants to go so far as to ban ICE cars and/or subsidize EVs, more power to them! Just don't force me to. For me, I am happy to let the ICE drivers cruise to work in Kansas, after all with the prevailing South winds there is nothing here trapping the smog!
And all you guys ranting about oil subsidies, there shouldn't be any! And Ethanol is another complete waste of taxpayer money forced on us by lobbyists and misguided politicians. Let the market set the price of oil without subsidies and if the lack of subsidies forces oil prices up to $150/Bbl then oil consumption will plummet and the ICE car will die a natural death. Of course something will need to fill the void to replace the energy once burned in the ICE cars (nukes, coal, etc..) but better to let free markets solve that problem than politicians!
And all you guys ranting about oil subsidies, there shouldn't be any! And Ethanol is another complete waste of taxpayer money forced on us by lobbyists and misguided politicians. Let the market set the price of oil without subsidies and if the lack of subsidies forces oil prices up to $150/Bbl then oil consumption will plummet and the ICE car will die a natural death. Of course something will need to fill the void to replace the energy once burned in the ICE cars (nukes, coal, etc..) but better to let free markets solve that problem than politicians!
It’s determined by price. The model 3 plus qualifies, the S and X doesn’t. I’m ok with that as those are more luxury type vehicles where purchursers don’t need a grant. We are a socialist country and kind of frown upon wealthy people getting subsidies etc. Also, it’s a grant, not a tax deduction. It’s taken right off at the dealership. You never pay it. It is subtracted from the taxed total of the car.
if you allow Tesla, Nissan and GM to take essentially all of the credits, there’s extremely little incentive for Ford, VW, Honda to try and catch up and participate in the EV market. By allowing each manufacturer their own credits, they have an incentive to join the market now rather than giving up completely.
IMO - Very complicated issue with good points on both sides and middle ground. Before passing judgement, I'd like to hear what the Administration has to say on the subject. Hopefully they will release a statement clarifying their position. For the most part, a good discussion though.
Sherlo
Member
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