Tesla EV Tax Credits coming back?

[nate704]

You missed the most important reason behind this: the climate concern, and therefore the incentive is in place for the hope to accelerate the transition to EV. Whether you support this purpose or not, it is something that the supporters of the current government care about, and therefore the government needs to provide guidance here in support of this purpose.


As of current, Nissan Leaf is not considered affordable in your view? What about all the other new EVs that will be popping out in the next few years just because the incentive is doing its job in raising general publics' interest in switching to EVs?

Current administration says otherwise. Their intention might be the transition to EV, but they do not care if you can afford one or not. This incentive is more for the manufacturers instead of the consumers since manufacturers raise the prices to cancel out the incentives just like Tesla is doing now. Also, all other legacy EVs have dealer markups exceeding the potential incentive amount.

That is why this topic becomes political since the current administration and its party have to payback their donors with this political move.
WH and Sec of Transportation suggested to buy EVs in response to the current high gas price, but they don't even mention how to make the EVs affordable for those who cannot afford.

All EVs in the current market or near future will not be affordable to those at or below the average income (Average US income was $31k in 2019) even with the incentive when comparing the same size, range(mpg), and cost with their ICE counterparts. Also, many low income or below average income families live in an apartment that have little to none charging capability, and public charging including the superchargers are getting more expensive to charge, so it is not much of saving compare to the gas price.

 

[Arthur Itis]

You missed the most important reason behind this: the climate concern, and therefore the incentive is in place for the hope to accelerate the transition to EV. Whether you support this purpose or not, it is something that the supporters of the current government care about, and therefore the government needs to provide guidance here in support of this purpose.


As of current, Nissan Leaf is not considered affordable in your view? What about all the other new EVs that will be popping out in the next few years just because the incentive is doing its job in raising general publics' interest in switching to EVs?

Also, for many middle class families and individuals, this incentive is important in their decisions of adopting a "luxury" EV like Tesla. This $7k+ discount makes huge difference when evaluating whether to go for a Tesla (say, for Model Y, this is a 10%+ discount) v.s. traditional luxury car brands, at least that is for me and people around me. Without the incentive, I would struggle between getting a Model Y v.s. getting a luxury ICE and putting this $7k+ to other investments; while with the incentive, I would get a Model Y without any doubt. So, that does make a difference!

If the most important reason behind this is climate and the government wanted to promote EVs and get the word out they wouldn't be ignoring Tesla. You'd think, since Tesla has made twice the # of EVs driving around in America than any other manufacturer; with their supercharger infrastructure; with the building of Giga-Austin; with a 10 year lead on everyone else, that government would be uttering the word Tesla every other sentence. But they don't.

So what's really going on?

 

[SageBrush]

This incentive is more for the manufacturers instead of the consumers since manufacturers raise the prices to cancel out the incentives just like Tesla is doing now.

Yes ... but the manufacturer is then incentivized to produce more EVs. And if enough manufacturers are competing, then supply/demand brings the consumer price down.

 

[nate704]

I second this, why not? Especially in this case you just lose the order fee.

And I have to say @nate704, with Model Y LR, "financial ability" is most likely not the concern here. If you can afford a Model Y LR comfortably, you are likely going to afford it even without the incentive. The issue is, is it worth getting it for the additional $7k+? This involves rationalizing the price versus what the car offers, the build quality of the car, etc. With $7k+ difference, there is much to think whether this investment is good or not. Many people are smart and careful with $$ nowadays, and this $7k could go to other investments, whether it be a better car option or financials.

I have a MYP in order, and without the incentive, I don't think the car is "worth" it anymore in my book.

Please read what I quoted from OP's post. I only quoted OP's statement saying he could not afford the car without the incentives. All I am saying is that you should budget things that you can afford without any help/incentive in terms of total ownership cost.
Let's say you can buy the $10k over your budget car with this incentive, but it will not help you to pay increased insurance and tax cost.

 

[Arthur Itis]

Yes ... but the manufacturer is then incentivized to produce more EVs. And if enough manufacturers are competing, then supply/demand brings the consumer price down.

Competition by itself can bring the price down. No need for government intervention. We are on the cusp of tipping the scales towards electric. Other manufacturers who used to laugh at Tesla are now scrambling to build factories to build EVs and batteries because they see Tesla's success - not because of some BBB bill that 'might' allow them to charge more for it.

This coming competition will be good for everyone and even the environment wins. It's going to happen even if the BBB bill drops the subsidies.

 

[mwdietertg]

Competition by itself can bring the price down. No need for government intervention. We are on the cusp of tipping the scales towards electric.

Cool, but the Biden admin has committed to cut greenhouse gas emission by 50% by 2030. I agree that the market is moving towards BEV regardless of subsidies but "On the cusp of tipping the scales" is not the drastic measures needed to achieve this goal.

 

[ohmman]

Moderator Note: A bunch of posts moved away to Politics Quarantine. I recognize that a tax policy discussion will have some politics involved, but they should only be discussed as they directly pertain to the bill or to EVs in general, per the site policy.

It might be worth considering that nobody is changing anyone else's ideology on the Tesla Motors Club forum.

 

[pdx_m3s]

It might be worth considering that nobody is changing anyone else's ideology on the Tesla Motors Club forum.

Well said.

 

[ElectricIAC]

If the most important reason behind this is climate and the government wanted to promote EVs and get the word out they wouldn't be ignoring Tesla. You'd think, since Tesla has made twice the # of EVs driving around in America than any other manufacturer; with their supercharger infrastructure; with the building of Giga-Austin; with a 10 year lead on everyone else, that government would be uttering the word Tesla every other sentence. But they don't.

So what's really going on?

This x100.

 

[doomsday997]

This is a cut and paste from an nbc news article explains pretty well how difficult it will be to get this passed before christmas as time is rapidly running out, and I was incorrect earlier although they reached deals verbally senate votes on the NDAA and debt ceiling haven't happened yet:

Yet big hurdles remain. The Senate parliamentarian has yet to finish the “Byrd Bath” for the legislation, particularly the most important titles, those covering the Finance and HELP committees. There are ongoing intra-party disputes over Medicare expansion, the state and local tax deduction (SALT) and immigration. And Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) doesn’t sound sold on either the size or content of the package. Without his vote, Schumer can’t go anywhere except back to Brooklyn to celebrate the holiday season with his family.

Here’s Manchin at the Wall Street Journal’s CEO Council Summit on Tuesday:

“The unknown we're facing today is much greater than the need that people believe in this aspirational bill that we're looking at. And we've got to make sure we get this right, we just can't continue to flood the market as we've done.”

That’s Manchinese for “Pump the brakes, Chuck!!!”

Anyway, the Senate will spend the rest of this week working on legislation that would set up an expedited process for considering a debt-limit increase, which Congress must finish up before Dec. 15 (see above).

Next week, the Senate will take up the actual debt-limit increase, as well as the National Defense Authorization Act. The NDAA, in particular, will chew up most of the week.

And Christmas is the following week. It’ll be hard for Schumer to keep senators from skipping town to be with their families. The week of Dec. 27-31 is another challenge attendance-wise.

 

[patmurphey]

...All EVs in the current market or near future will not be affordable to those at or below the average income (Average US income was $31k in 2019) ..

Let's talk relevant income - Median family income - 2019, $68,700 - 2021 $79,900

 

[ElectricIAC]

Let's talk relevant income - Median family income - 2019, $68,700 - 2021 $79,900

Clearly the caps don’t need to be anywhere near as high as they are set at in current iteration.

 

[nate704]

Median family income

"As a median the measure does not take into account incomes at the upper and lower ends of the distribution"
Aren't we talking about the people with lower end of the income who cannot afford EVs? Median income means pretty much middle class

 

[advocate8]

No más, Tomas.

whatever parliamentarian says Manchin is going to wave his arms, shout inflation and vote either no or yes to a tiny shard of the bill. Then he’ll take credit for that with conservatives back home, rake in even more GOP donations and ... change parties for the next election.

 

[PineNut]

I keep seeing people say the BBB Bill doesn't do anything to help those with lower income purchase an EV.

That may be true for a new EV, but the BBB Bill also provides a tax credit for used EVs. That credit is for $4000 (for an EV with at least a 40 kWhr battery) and the income limits are lower at $75K single/$150K joint (vs. $250K single/$500K joint for a new EV).

However, there is a maximum price requirement for a used EV of $25K which would restrict what's available. Still, there are plenty of used Chevy Bolts or Nissan Leafs (credit is $2K for Leafs with less than 40 kWhr battery) available below that limit.

 

[nate704]

I keep seeing people say the BBB Bill doesn't do anything to help those with lower income purchase an EV.

That may be true for a new EV, but the BBB Bill also provides a tax credit for used EVs. That credit is for $4000 (for an EV with at least a 40 kWhr battery) and the income limits are lower at $75K single/$150K joint (vs. $250K single/$500K joint for a new EV).

However, there is a maximum price requirement for a used EV of $25K which would restrict what's available. Still, there are plenty of used Chevy Bolts or Nissan Leafs (credit is $2K for Leafs with less than 40 kWhr battery) available below that limit.

Most small compact ICE cars will go between 300-400 miles per tank. I wonder how many times and how long you have to stop and charge to go up to 400 miles with old and used Leaf or Bolt?

 

[nwdiver]

Most small compact ICE cars will go between 300-400 miles per tank. I wonder how many times and how long you have to stop and charge to go up to 400 miles with old and used Leaf or Bolt?

When you plug in at home, work or while shopping how would that be relevant? I have no idea how long it takes to charge my iPhone or how long it takes to charge because I charge it when it's not in use. Similar with my car.

 

[PineNut]

Most small compact ICE cars will go between 300-400 miles per tank. I wonder how many times and how long you have to stop and charge to go up to 400 miles with old and used Leaf or Bolt?

I know the Chevy Bolt is restricted to 55 kW fast charging which means it takes about an hour to charge to 80%. So yeah, it's not very fast.

The Leaf is also limited to 50 kW charging but is also restricted to the CHAdeMO standard.

 

[nate704]

When you plug in at home, work or while shopping how would that be relevant? I have no idea how long it takes to charge my iPhone or how long it takes to charge because I charge it when it's not in use. Similar with my car.

most low income level people do not have single family home or town homes. Most live in an apartment complex type which do not have that capability. what about long distance trip? Public charging and superchargers cost are getting more expensive, and they don't save much when compare to gas prices.

Supercharger Station Price Increases

I always laughed at the people that complained about per-minute billing at the Supercharger stations. As noted, the per-minute rates were MUCH lower than the per-kWh rates, at least if you didn’t try to do a 100% charge. Oh well, people got what they asked for, higher costs at the Supercharger...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[doomsday997]

Most small compact ICE cars will go between 300-400 miles per tank. I wonder how many times and how long you have to stop and charge to go up to 400 miles with old and used Leaf or Bolt?

A lot of older leaf’s you’ll be lucky if they will go over 60 miles.