Tesla FSD/Autopilot under attack

[alexgr]

A new hit piece has emerged this morning thanks to Reuters "A life and death questions for regulators: Is Tesla's Autopilot safe?"

Insight: A life and death question for regulators: Is Tesla's Autopilot safe?

Robin Geoulla had doubts about the automated driving technology equipped on his Tesla Model S when he bought the electric car in 2017.

www.reuters.com

What really struck me is the complete ignorance of the authors that culminates in this statement:
"Tesla has used Autopilot’s ability to update vehicle software over the air to outpace and sidestep the traditional vehicle-recall process."
Is there anything we can do to promote correct information about the Autopilot/FSD to a broader audience to educate people and resist political agenda? Writing open letters from Tesla clubs maybe? I don't know. I am sick and tired of this never-ending misinformation about Tesla in the press and political circles.

 

[Tam]

...What really struck me is the complete ignorance of the authors that culminates in this statement:
"Tesla has used Autopilot’s ability to update vehicle software over the air to outpace and sidestep the traditional vehicle-recall process."

The article is behind a paywall so thanks for the quotation.

I see that statement is praise to Tesla over the air technology so that owners don't have to bring their cars in for each software update/software recall. The contrast is covered in the article below as owners of Taycan had to bring their cars in for a software update:

Tesla stans dunk on Porsche Taycan’s slow software update

It's the opposite of over-the-air.

mashable.com

...Is there anything we can do to promote correct information about the Autopilot/FSD to a broader audience to educate people and resist political agenda?...

I see criticisms about Autopilot/FSD as safety concerns rather than political agenda.

NTSB warns that Tesla needs to address the "basic safety issues". Waymo has done that since 2009 with no collisions with big gigantic trucks blocking in front or stationary police patrol cars/fire trucks partially blocking a lane.

Writing open letters from Tesla clubs maybe? I don't know. I am sick and tired of this never-ending misinformation about Tesla in the press and political circles.

Once Tesla has fixed its "basic safety issues" then we can talk about the "political agenda" but until then, it's a basic safety issue.

 

[EVNow]

Waymo has done that since 2009 with no collisions

Waymo has something like 1/10000 of Tesla's fleet.

 

[Tam]

Waymo has something like 1/10000 of Tesla's fleet.

There is no argument about that!

NTSB's argument is that the technology for collision avoidance has been available (as since 2009 with Waymo with a good track record) so Tesla needs to focus on the implementation of that technology rather than be distracted by another method such as blaming bad drivers who don't know how to use Tesla's technology.

 

[diplomat33]

What really struck me is the complete ignorance of the authors that culminates in this statement:
"Tesla has used Autopilot’s ability to update vehicle software over the air to outpace and sidestep the traditional vehicle-recall process."

The sentence is a bit clumsy maybe since it is not AP that has the ability to update the software, rather it is Tesla that has the ability to update the AP software. But other than the clumsiness, it is factually true. It is trying to say that Tesla does OTA updates and so does not need to do manual recalls of vehicles to update AP. That is factually true.

 

[EVNow]

NTSB's argument is that the technology for collision avoidance has been available (as since 2009 with Waymo with a good track record) so Tesla needs to focus on the implementation of that technology rather than be distracted by another method such as blaming bad drivers who don't know how to use Tesla's technology.

Why is NTSB not making collision avoidance mandatory on ALL cars ? I'm not joking - it is probably the most significant mandate NTSB can make to save a lot of lives / collisions.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Why is NTSB not making collision avoidance mandatory on ALL cars ? I'm not joking - it is it probably the most significant mandate NTSB can make to save a lot of lives / collisions.

NTSB can't make rules. However the NHTSA has gotten an agreement from automakers to add AEB and FCW to all vehicles by September 2022. Technically not a mandate but it sounds like basically every new car will have it.

NHTSA Announces Update to Historic AEB Commitment by 20 Automakers | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

Update on progress:

NHTSA Announces 2020 Update on AEB Installation by 20 Automakers | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

 

[EVNow]

NTSB can't make rules. However the NHTSA has gotten an agreement from automakers to add AEB and FCW to all vehicles by September 2022. Technically not a mandate but it sounds like basically every new car will have it.

NHTSA Announces Update to Historic AEB Commitment by 20 Automakers | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

The problem is all these government agencies act as if they are employed by the industries they regulate - rather than do things to help citizens. The industry will fight tooth and nail about any regulation that can avoid accidents if it costs them a penny a car more.

NTSB's argument is that the technology for collision avoidance has been available

So, why didn't the agencies make it mandatory a long time back ? Could have saved millions of fatalities/injuries.

 

[helvio]

Once Tesla has fixed its "basic safety issues" then we can talk about the "political agenda"

I disagree. Anything Tesla makes the news disproportionally more than the same event with other MFGs. It's bull-sugar.

But my point is, I don't think things have to be worked on in a line. Both safety and politics can (and should) be discussed in parallel.

 

[alexgr]

The article is behind a paywall so thanks for the quotation.

Interestingly, it's not behind a paywall for me even though I paid nothing ... could be a free allowance.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The problem is all these government agencies act as if they are employed by the industries they regulate - rather than do things to help citizens. The industry will fight tooth and nail about any regulation that can avoid accidents if it costs them a penny a car more.

FCW and AEB don't really cost anything since they reuse the hardware for TACC and lane keep assist which consumers are already demanding. That's probably how they were able to get the industry to agree to install them on all vehicles.
Automobiles have gotten way safer over the years with many mandates put in place so it's not obvious to me that the industry is holding back progress.

 

[alexgr]

The sentence is a bit clumsy maybe since it is not AP that has the ability to update the software, rather it is Tesla that has the ability to update the AP software. But other than the clumsiness, it is factually true. It is trying to say that Tesla does OTA updates and so does not need to do manual recalls of vehicles to update AP. That is factually true.

That's what you hope they meant, which may or may not be true, but it could mean any number of things we want.

 

[Tam]

I disagree. Anything Tesla makes the news disproportionally more than the same event with other MFGs. It's bull-sugar.

But my point is, I don't think things have to be worked on in a line. Both safety and politics can (and should) be discussed in parallel.

The disproportionality is because only Tesla is the one that sells, advertises, and claims "Full Self Driving". There's no one else in the market who has ever done that. None! It's a monopoly in "Full Self Driving".

It would be less controversial if Tesla would sell something like "You die if you don't drive system".

 

[helvio]

The disproportionality is because only Tesla is the one that sells, advertises, and claims "Full Self Driving". There's no one else in the market who has ever done that. None! It's a monopoly in "Full Self Driving".

It would be less controversial if Tesla would sell something like "You die if you don't drive system".

Again, I disagree. See car fires. Teslas vs Bolts.

 

[alexgr]

NTSB warns that Tesla needs to address the "basic safety issues". Waymo has done that since 2009 with no collisions with big gigantic trucks blocking in front or stationary police patrol cars/fire trucks partially blocking a lane.

Waymo’s driverless cars were involved in 18 accidents over 20 months

Waymo released a safety report outlining the accidents and near-collisions its cars encountered in the years they've been driving in Phoenix.

venturebeat.com

Once Tesla has fixed its "basic safety issues" then we can talk about the "political agenda" but until then, it's a basic safety issue.

Could you name a couple of those "basic safety issues" that others addressed and Tesla failed to address?

 

[diplomat33]

Waymo’s driverless cars were involved in 18 accidents over 20 months

Waymo released a safety report outlining the accidents and near-collisions its cars encountered in the years they've been driving in Phoenix.

venturebeat.com

Full disclosure, the Waymo accidents were minor with no fatalities or serious injuries. Very different from Tesla accidents where people died.

 

[Tam]

Could you name a couple of those "basic safety issues" that others addressed and Tesla failed to address?

NTSB has pointed out the "basic safety issues" since its first Autopilot investigation in the fatal 2016 Florida accident. Tesla does accept it's a problem in its blog.

A Tragic Loss | Tesla Australia

www.tesla.com

 

[alexgr]

There is no argument about that!

NTSB's argument is that the technology for collision avoidance has been available (as since 2009 with Waymo with a good track record) so Tesla needs to focus on the implementation of that technology rather than be distracted by another method such as blaming bad drivers who don't know how to use Tesla's technology.

Waymo does not have a perfect safety record and is its technology is VERY limited and expensive. Why do you suggest that Waymo technology is made a de facto standard for the entire automobile industry?

 

[alexgr]

Full disclosure, the Waymo accidents were minor with no fatalities or serious injuries. Very different from Tesla accidents where people died.

How many of Tesla fatalities are in accidents that happened at speeds under 45 mpg (the current Waymo speed limit, if I am not mistaken). Full disclosure: Waymo can't go on a highway.

 

[Matias]

Interestingly, it's not behind a paywall for me even though I paid nothing ... could be a free allowance.

What is the misinformation in this article?