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Discussion in 'Tesla' started by AnOutsider, Apr 28, 2016.
According to this article: Tesla loses its credit rating in Norway over ~$250,000 of unpaid bills
An interesting piece, although certainly not worth getting too excited about. Perhaps as intriguing (if true) was a comment to the article claiming that an Indiana Supercharger had been recently disconnected from the grid due to unpaid bills. I had not read anything this (If indeed it happened). Does anyone have any links/information about this claim?
Probably from this Reddit Thread, of 11 days ago. The thread OP claims to be a Tesla Owner who was present at the Indianapolis Supercharger when utility crews disconnected it telling him in the process that it was due to non-payment of bills. Claims he was towed to another charger. Others in the thread confirm that the Indianapolis SC was showing OOS shortly thereafter but, of course, no one else can confirm the reason for the OOS. Thread does not document how long the SC was OOS.
Indianapolis Supercharger down for nonpayment • /r/teslamotors
Also interesting in this thread is a mention of the "Never blame Tesla" bias here at TMC for when owners bring up some Tesla problems.
Heh. The irony being that at TM's own forums, which are barely moderated, there is both much less fanboism/sycophantic protectionism *and* much less need for moderation. Chicken/egg?
As far as for not paying bills in a timely manner, that's just bush league. I'm sure as Tesla matures, there will be much less to none of that. It's embarrassing at best.
Now, in the spirit of equal time, if there are legitimate concerns over any number of things that can cause payment delays, that's different. Especially internationally - try getting even the simplest things done in Ecuador (just to pick a country) as an expat business - patience is not optional).
As for Indiana, well, who's to say Tesla is primary at that particular SC? Their arrangement may involve reimbursing either the tenant/master tenant or some management company - any one of whom could have failed to pay the utility bill. And just like that, Tesla ends up having to fix a mess they didn't directly create.
Quite possibly... I do find that the moderation here tends to allow (encourage?) the kool-aid pile-on atmosphere that typifies TMC, where as other forums that apply moderation with less of a bias result in more informative thread content. I assume this moderation bias is driven by an administrative goal for a more harmonious forum - even if that comes at the cost of information fidelity. Totally within the rights of the site operators to do so, but is does cause some people, myself included, to primarily contribute elsewhere. The loss of WK057's rich contributions to this forum is an example of how a "Rah-Rah" moderation bias over "content" can weaken community. The nice thing about the internet is there is plenty of room for all approaches.
As for the Indianapolis SC situation, I was not taking any positions, just forwarding the information.
According to the Indianapolis Tesla Store (at the fashion mall) the Indianapolis supercharger was only down for two hours. I don't know why it was down, but Tesla has been consistent in promptly fixing any supercharger issues.
If one supercharger went down for non-payment, it's possible the utility had the wrong address to send the bill to or some other billing error. If Tesla wasn't paying its utility bills consistently we'd be hearing stories of superchargers going down for non-payment all over the world.
As for the original story about Norway, the bills only total $225,000 (I'm assuming USD). That's the price of two cars. It sounds like quite a piddling amount to be in arrears for. Maybe they are in some kind of dispute with someone over some parts or service?
This will be core in moving forward. When you consider how frequent CHAdeMO and ChargePoint stations are out of service, if I were driving a Bolt I would be nervous about trying a long cross country trip against those charging networks. OTR drivers stranded at out of service chargers isn't the kind of thing one wants to see develop meme status.
Have you been reading the same TMC forums I have been? There's plenty of criticisms of Tesla on these forums. Criticism about communication problems, quality control, length of time for service, bugs, etc. etc.
That's constructive criticism with the end goal of problems being fixed.
I think he is talking about the lack of unrestrained hater-fests here, where people are rarely challenged in their criticism of Tesla and where the end goal is just to put down Tesla. You see a lot of this in the comment sections of other auto news sites (and maybe in an unmoderated forums like the Tesla Motors forum).
I disagree no moderation necessarily leads to better quality of posts. Usually the signal to noise ratio in threads like those is poor because the people putting such criticism tends to be much less knowledgeable about Tesla in general and rarely have insightful commentary to add (and it is a nice place for trolls to hang out). I never bothered participating in the Tesla Motors forums (and stopped reading it) years ago because it fit this profile given the lack of moderation (it may have improved in recent years).
There's also probably a false balance fallacy too. Tesla enthusiast forums (aka Tesla fan forums) should be expected to have some pro-Tesla bias and support the overall mission of the company.
False balance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wow. Where to begin. There's so much wrong with this post that it might take awhile. And the poster generally posts good stuff, which doesn't make this easy.
1. No, he wasn't talking about "unrestrained hater-fests". He was quite clear, really. So much for that paragraph.
2. TM is not unmoderated. There is administrative moderation. It is subtle. There is also community moderation, which at times is not so subtle.
3. "No moderation", therefore, is a straw man, which pretty much obviates the rest of that paragraph.
4. While there may be a false balance, "should be expected" is a canard. It in no way is a valid excuse for blatant fanboism or in the case of pretty much the entire post quoted above, knee-jerk defensiveness as if the company was your own family. Now, it may be that the poster above has relatives who work for the company, in which case, well, cool, and there you have it . If there was ever a group that deserves all good things, it's those working 80+ hour weeks at Tesla and SpaceX. No, I'm not exaggerating. Met a former engineer the other day who worked at both companies - he laughed and said he routinely put in 60 hours in the first 4 days of the week. If you've ever worked in, say Silicon Valley and felt the buzz, you know this is not an exaggeration.
In the end, we're all more or less on the same side and one commonality is that ain't none of us are about to sell our cars and buy an ICE. Willingly, at least. Further, many of us are shareholders and have a vested interest in the success of the company above and beyond what happens to our personal vehicle(s).
With all of that said, it is obvious to even the casual observer, and certainly to veterans of the internet age, that there can be here, at times, an inherent defensiveness that is sometimes, often inadvertently, exacerbated by attempts at moderation. As a result, you have two fora (TMC and TM) with both pros and cons. TMC has more active participants, presumably, and a wonderful trove of archival information. It is also the progenitor of TMC Connect, which is one of those pilgrimages that EVERY owner should attend at least once - similar to the Black Hills Tesla Rally (Sound of Silence), held annually the 3rd week of May in Custer, South Dakota. Search TMC or TM (volkerize.com) for why, and do consider staying at the Rocket Motel .
Again, in the end, we may disagree occasionally, but the mission is the same - and all of those who put time in here and at TM deserve appreciation if nothing else. While I do wish TMC wasn't quite so occasionally partisan, it is still FAR better than many other car fora. At the same time, I am quite thankful for the TM fora, wherein the environment is, I find, much less partisan and, BECAUSE there is no overt moderation, also for the most part quite restrained. The fact that every Tesla owner has an account at TM and that generally this is what's used to post in the fora *may* have something to do with that. No idea, really.
My "unrestrained hater-fest" example just serves as a direct opposite example to "kool-aid pile-on atmosphere". Basically my interpretation is I disagree with his point about this forum being a "kool-aid" fanboy forum, but rather feel this is a "haters not welcome here" forum.
Sorry my response was a hybrid between his comment and your's that he responded to, where you mention:
"Heh. The irony being that at TM's own forums, which are barely moderated, there is both much less fanboism/sycophantic protectionism *and* much less need for moderation. Chicken/egg?"
Admittedly, I haven't read the TM's forums for a long time (I mention that in my comment), but back when it was completely public and readily accessible, it was pretty close to unmoderated (there may have been a minimal amount in terms of occasional clean up of spam). And the quality of posts were horrible and troll/spam posts were abound. That's why I picked TMC to participate in, despite TM being the "official" forums.
No, my comment about "should be expected" is not as an excuse for blatant fanboyism, but rather to point out that it is not reasonable and is extremely naive to come to a Tesla enthusiast forum and expect there to be no pro-Tesla bias. I've seen a lot of cases where people negative about Tesla come here to post and then not lasting very long because of the pro-Tesla biased atmosphere here. And it's not pure fanboyism or bias either, but a lot of it is because we also have a lot knowledgeable people here that can contribute an insightful response to any criticism about Tesla.
Whereas in a non-Tesla focused environment, many times such claims may go unchallenged (because the audience is not so knowledgeable about Tesla in the first place). A lot of people that thrive in other environments (for example Seeking Alpha) find that they don't thrive here for the above reasons (and quickly retreat back to wherever they came from).
I believe in recent years, the TM forum may have been improved because there are owner exclusive and private sections and Tesla made it so the main forum link is no longer directly on Tesla's home page (you have to dig to find it now). I think these changes may be more responsible for the different atmosphere more than limited moderation. Basically if you are a Tesla hater or troll, you get far less "public" exposure for your posts.
TMC however is far more public and open (which is why journalists love to come here to find material and practically never do the same for the TM forums). Despite the accusation of "pile-ons," if you have a valid point and the criticism is framed in the context of improving Tesla or solving the problem, the threads usually stand and people continue to contribute data in hopes of getting issues resolved (which was the examples S'toon was alluding to). Threads designed to spread FUD or to criticize just to criticize are those that are "piled-on" usually. Then there are those in the grey area where there is no consensus (these are the ones that go hundreds of pages long).