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FlatSix911

Porsche 918 Hybrid
Jun 15, 2015
7,629
8,032
Silicon Valley
Back on track.... Teardown of new 100 kWh Tesla battery pack reveals new cooling system and 102 kWh capacity

Looks like the battery technology is not so different from the 90kWh pack vs the 100kWh pack... just 2 additional cooling loops :cool:

Hughes’ teardown of the pack revealed that the new modules have 516 cells for a total of 8,256 cells per pack. That’s a ~16% increase over the number of cells in the 85/90 kWh packs. In a blog post, Hughes describes the new module and cooling architecture:

Basically they crammed a couple more rows of cells into the module. But what about the rumors around cooling? Well, they did modify the cooling, but not in any exotic way. The new modules simply have two shorter and thinner cooling loops per module. This way the coolant doesn’t have to run past so many cells before exiting. And he shared a few pictures (the one on the left is a comparison of a module from a 85 kWh pack (top) vs a module from a 100 kWh (bottom)):

View attachment 211953
 

Model 3

Active Member
Jul 13, 2014
2,133
1,326
Norway
Maybe it is just me but isn't this not about the gigafactory...how did we end up here.
It is all connected.

China halts over 100 coal power projects because they are building out renewable like solar and wind.
Solar and wind does not produce electricity 24/7/365, so they need some way to temporary store the energy.
So it is to be presumed that China will need to employ some type of PowerPack farms to store some of this energy.
So China will have to increase production of cheep and high quality batteries to produce their "PowerPacks" - or buy it from someone else like Tesla. (...and if they do, it is relevant for the GF)
So if Chine is not buying their batteries from someone else, then China will have to make their own Gigafactories with or without Tesla.
It is all connected :)
 

Oil4AsphaultOnly

Active Member
Supporting Member
Mar 14, 2015
2,364
6,670
Arcadia, CA
It is all connected.

China halts over 100 coal power projects because they are building out renewable like solar and wind.
Solar and wind does not produce electricity 24/7/365, so they need some way to temporary store the energy.
So it is to be presumed that China will need to employ some type of PowerPack farms to store some of this energy.
So China will have to increase production of cheep and high quality batteries to produce their "PowerPacks" - or buy it from someone else like Tesla. (...and if they do, it is relevant for the GF)
So if Chine is not buying their batteries from someone else, then China will have to make their own Gigafactories with or without Tesla.
It is all connected :)

I wouldn't peg my hopes on China buying Tesla's power packs. BYD is building out their battery factories, and it would seem logical for them to use the LiFePo chemistry for stationary storage. Plus LG and Samgsung have factories in china as well.

Not saying it's impossible for Tesla to get a foot in, just that there's plenty of incentive for China to support their own domestic production ... especially with Trump's stance on international trade.
 

Model 3

Active Member
Jul 13, 2014
2,133
1,326
Norway
I wouldn't peg my hopes on China buying Tesla's power packs.
I know I know, I do agree on all you said here, I just wanted to show the (slim) possibility for it to happen. The more likely outcome is what @Waiting4M3 said:
global battery demand going up can only be a good thing for Tesla who has vertically integrated battery manufacturing. Once China soaks up Byd, LG and Samsung SDI's capacity, where are the ICE makers going to get their battery from?
Just my point :) It is all connected...
 
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It is all connected.

China halts over 100 coal power projects because they are building out renewable like solar and wind.
Solar and wind does not produce electricity 24/7/365, so they need some way to temporary store the energy.
...
:)

There is no wind power at center of high and low pressure systems. Between those there are strong winds. So in large area like China wind power is available 24/7/365, Of course there is some variation, but I don't know how much.
 
There is no wind power at center of high and low pressure systems. Between those there are strong winds. So in large area like China wind power is available 24/7/365, Of course there is some variation, but I don't know how much.
There is a book titled "1434- the year a magnificent Chinese fleet sailed into Italy and ignited the renaissance". In that book, there is a considerable explanation of the winds of China - how the monsoons were influenced by the mountain cooling and plain heating to dictate the sailing calendars. The winds of China have been studied and documented for over 500 years and so modern wind farms will rest on a well studied pattern.
As an American engineer, I hate to admit that the Chinese engineers may be so far advanced over our skills. If THEY build a wind farm, they might well succeed.
 
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Cloxxki

Active Member
Aug 20, 2016
1,362
706
Rotterdam
As a Dutchie, I don't see the problem of a windfarm.
Except, to not make it a farm but decentralized with smaller turbines, seems the way to go.
Make a turbin twice as tall and you catch 4x as much surface area worth of wind.
However, the thing will be 8x heavier.

Look out of your window. See that place not covered by solar or wind energy generators? That's the spot wasting free energy. I bet most of you can spot either from your window, let lone see 1% of surface utilizations. A city is full of roofs and facades.
 

wdolson

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jul 24, 2015
9,088
18,797
Clark Co, WA
There is a book titled "1434- the year a magnificent Chinese fleet sailed into Italy and ignited the renaissance". In that book, there is a considerable explanation of the winds of China - how the monsoons were influenced by the mountain cooling and plain heating to dictate the sailing calendars. The winds of China have been studied and documented for over 500 years and so modern wind farms will rest on a well studied pattern.
As an American engineer, I hate to admit that the Chinese engineers may be so far advanced over our skills. If THEY build a wind farm, they might well succeed.

The Chinese school system is not great at encouraging innovation, but they do turn out competent engineers who can build on other people's ideas. I've known some ex-pat Chinese and read writings of several others and they have said if you have a yen to innovate, it's a lot easier to leave China and prove your ideas elsewhere before returning.

Chinese quality control can also be all over the map. Their culture is sort of based on whatever you can get away with, so counterfeits are common. Alaska Airlines lost an MD-80 off Los Angeles around 2000 due to counterfeit Chinese bolts. There is an international standard for hardened steel hardware that certain marks are cast into the part to indicate to what level it's been hardened. A Chinese counterfeit company decided to use one of these markings as their company logo and cast it into all their parts. These parts then got sold internationally as the hardened parts even though they were just standard grade steel.

Testing for counterfeit electronic parts is becoming a big industry too. I worked a lot of overtime last fall on an integrated circuit counterfeit tester. (It was developed from another instrument the company I work for makes, but it required a fair bit of new software.)

Typically countries on the rise think of doing big things. When the US was coming into its own, it built a lot of skyscrapers, large dams, and finally a massive highway project followed by putting people on the moon. There is a lot of talk that the US can't do those things anymore, but US engineers still come up with the ideas. It's mostly just attitude though. If the US delayed an aircraft carrier or two or canceled a few defense contracts, the money could be spent on something that would boost the American economy. Something like high speed rail coast to coast would be a huge benefit to the economy, but few are willing to spend the money.

Here in Clark County the luddites refuse to replace the I-5 bridge into Portland. Portland and the State of Oregon are ready to write a check for their half, but the people on this side of the river keep coming up with excuses for how it's too expensive. The bridge that's there now is 100 years old and is a huge bottle neck for traffic. Portland also wanted to extend the light rail across the bridge and the Clark County ostriches had a cow insisting that it would "bring in the wrong element". Portland's light rail is heavily used and at least 80% of riders are white and middle class. Same as most of the people claiming it would bring in the wrong element.

I shake my head at people's shortsightedness. Yes, it will probably have to be a toll bridge, but for those who have to commute into Portland each day, wouldn't it be worth $1 to cut 1/2 hour off the commute? I don't have to commute, but I would pay it. Most people pay several times that a day in coffee.

Today China is the country thinking of doing big things and they're the ones building the giant dams and other big infrastructure projects. China was seriously thinking about building an orbital solar satellite a few years ago, but I think the dropping prices for terrestrial solar put that project on the back burner. The Chinese have also made noises about establishing colonies on the moon.

Some of the ideas are home grown, but a frighteningly large number are from other parts of the world where those people didn't want to do it because it was "too big".
 

wdolson

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jul 24, 2015
9,088
18,797
Clark Co, WA
It is hard enough getting ground mount solar approved due to eyesores, a turbine is worse.

I heard about a company back east somewhere that made mini-wind turbines. They were vertical and looked like those chef hat shaped air fans for attics. I read about them about 5 years ago and lost track of the link. They were designed to go on people's roofs and I thought it was a great idea for people living in windy areas.
 

mspohr

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2014
11,830
15,665
California
I heard about a company back east somewhere that made mini-wind turbines. They were vertical and looked like those chef hat shaped air fans for attics. I read about them about 5 years ago and lost track of the link. They were designed to go on people's roofs and I thought it was a great idea for people living in windy areas.
Unfortunately, small wind turbines are not very efficient so cost/watt is high. You need really big turbines to get high efficiency.
 

Zapped

Model S - PURE EV
Aug 8, 2012
1,192
217
Work<->Home
I heard about a company back east somewhere that made mini-wind turbines. They were vertical and looked like those chef hat shaped air fans for attics. I read about them about 5 years ago and lost track of the link. They were designed to go on people's roofs and I thought it was a great idea for people living in windy areas.

icewind – Wind Power
Something like this ?
 
It is all connected.

China halts over 100 coal power projects because they are building out renewable like solar and wind.
Solar and wind does not produce electricity 24/7/365, so they need some way to temporary store the energy.
So it is to be presumed that China will need to employ some type of PowerPack farms to store some of this energy.
So China will have to increase production of cheep and high quality batteries to produce their "PowerPacks" - or buy it from someone else like Tesla. (...and if they do, it is relevant for the GF)
So if Chine is not buying their batteries from someone else, then China will have to make their own Gigafactories with or without Tesla.
It is all connected :)

No they halted them because there was no demand and the projects are often just make work for provincial officials, most of whom are on the take. Lots and lots of empty infrastructure sitting around in China, whole cities built and hardly any people. Just un f'ing believable what you can see there. Wind farms with no users, cities sitting, and on the other hand the coastal areas just packed in ass on elbow. So glad I don't live there. Also, natural gas prices are falling and it is cheaper to build peaker plants as nat gas.

Not disagreeing that China will install battery capacity and deploy quite a bit but...in China be very careful of assuming something is done due to economic efficiency and not due to some nationalistic rationale or due to corruption.
 
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FlatSix911

Porsche 918 Hybrid
Jun 15, 2015
7,629
8,032
Silicon Valley
The Chinese school system is not great at encouraging innovation, but they do turn out competent engineers who can build on other people's ideas. I've known some ex-pat Chinese and read writings of several others and they have said if you have a yen to innovate, it's a lot easier to leave China and prove your ideas elsewhere before returning.

Chinese quality control can also be all over the map. Their culture is sort of based on whatever you can get away with, so counterfeits are common. Alaska Airlines lost an MD-80 off Los Angeles around 2000 due to counterfeit Chinese bolts. There is an international standard for hardened steel hardware that certain marks are cast into the part to indicate to what level it's been hardened. A Chinese counterfeit company decided to use one of these markings as their company logo and cast it into all their parts. These parts then got sold internationally as the hardened parts even though they were just standard grade steel.

Testing for counterfeit electronic parts is becoming a big industry too. I worked a lot of overtime last fall on an integrated circuit counterfeit tester. (It was developed from another instrument the company I work for makes, but it required a fair bit of new software.)

Typically countries on the rise think of doing big things. When the US was coming into its own, it built a lot of skyscrapers, large dams, and finally a massive highway project followed by putting people on the moon. There is a lot of talk that the US can't do those things anymore, but US engineers still come up with the ideas. It's mostly just attitude though. If the US delayed an aircraft carrier or two or canceled a few defense contracts, the money could be spent on something that would boost the American economy. Something like high speed rail coast to coast would be a huge benefit to the economy, but few are willing to spend the money.

Here in Clark County the luddites refuse to replace the I-5 bridge into Portland. Portland and the State of Oregon are ready to write a check for their half, but the people on this side of the river keep coming up with excuses for how it's too expensive. The bridge that's there now is 100 years old and is a huge bottle neck for traffic. Portland also wanted to extend the light rail across the bridge and the Clark County ostriches had a cow insisting that it would "bring in the wrong element". Portland's light rail is heavily used and at least 80% of riders are white and middle class. Same as most of the people claiming it would bring in the wrong element.

I shake my head at people's shortsightedness. Yes, it will probably have to be a toll bridge, but for those who have to commute into Portland each day, wouldn't it be worth $1 to cut 1/2 hour off the commute? I don't have to commute, but I would pay it. Most people pay several times that a day in coffee.

Today China is the country thinking of doing big things and they're the ones building the giant dams and other big infrastructure projects. China was seriously thinking about building an orbital solar satellite a few years ago, but I think the dropping prices for terrestrial solar put that project on the back burner. The Chinese have also made noises about establishing colonies on the moon.

Some of the ideas are home grown, but a frighteningly large number are from other parts of the world where those people didn't want to do it because it was "too big".

Interesting ... no doubt that China is a rising power and committed to electric vehicles in a big way.
3 electric cars you’ve never heard of that dominated the market in China this year

China has not only become the biggest automotive market in the world, but also the biggest electric car market in the world. In 2016 alone, the country more than doubled its fleet of electric vehicles to now over 600,000 cars – more than the US or all European countries combined.
Yet, you probably haven’t heard much about the electric cars sold in volumes in China.
 

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