-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I wonder if this breach of contract might bring on some litigation? I'd also be worried about "locking in" the battery replacement price of $12K by paying in advance. What's to prevent them from jacking up that price in the future? I'm really disappointed by this decision, either they are desperate for cash which doesn't bode well or they've taken the attitude that people will pay anything they demand to have a roadster.
Let's Speculate
Tesla is playing this close to the vest so we will just have to guess at what might be happening behind the scenes. They seem to be in a cost pinch.
First, the forum reported months ago that Elon stated that the roadster costs were underestimated.
Second, along with the spike in oil prices came an overall increase in material prices.
Third, Tesla doesn't have the volume to negotiate steep price discounts.
Fourth, The roadster is still hand built and I doubt that they have realized much of a cost reduction from increased production. They have certainly reduced overhead expenses a bit, but not overall man hours to assemble a roadster.
Fifth, if anything, the total cost of material and labor has probably increased over the last few months.
Sixth, I'm not sure of the impact of the dollar vs euro valuation has on all this. Some one will have to fill that in for us.
I'm guessing that the Sport option was simply a way to increase the roadster price without a significant increase in cost to Tesla.
They are apparently in rough shape with costing right now. I would hope they soon give us a better explanation of why this move is critical.
Tesla is playing this close to the vest so we will just have to guess at what might be happening behind the scenes. They seem to be in a cost pinch.
First, the forum reported months ago that Elon stated that the roadster costs were underestimated.
Second, along with the spike in oil prices came an overall increase in material prices.
Third, Tesla doesn't have the volume to negotiate steep price discounts.
Fourth, The roadster is still hand built and I doubt that they have realized much of a cost reduction from increased production. They have certainly reduced overhead expenses a bit, but not overall man hours to assemble a roadster.
Fifth, if anything, the total cost of material and labor has probably increased over the last few months.
Sixth, I'm not sure of the impact of the dollar vs euro valuation has on all this. Some one will have to fill that in for us.
I'm guessing that the Sport option was simply a way to increase the roadster price without a significant increase in cost to Tesla.
They are apparently in rough shape with costing right now. I would hope they soon give us a better explanation of why this move is critical.
Last edited by a moderator:
Does anyone know whether Tesla or Lotus are responsible for buying the carbon fibre panels from their French manufacturer? Certainly the pound vs. euro has taken a bit of a battering recently.
Regarding Tesla's exposure to the Euro/$ exchange rate: If you aren't hedged in today's world, you're an idiot and deserve what you get. I speak from experience working at investment banks and being told to shut up when asking why the mortgage book is only 0 to 25% credit hedged and 0 to 80% directionally hedged. Look to the difference between profits of any major airline and Southwest for one of a million more examples.
As for the battery idea, it seems useful for anyone that plans on driving the car quite a bit, although it seems like a big gamble since you don't know what the replacement will actually be when needed. Will you get the $25,000 top end replacement (MUCH better than today's battery), or the one equivalent to the one you are replacing (probably around $5,000 in 5-7 years). Seems impossible for them to guarantee anything since Tesla doesn't know what will be available down the road or its cost. Lucky for me this option is pointless as I only anticipate putting 4-5k miles per year on mine. If I like the car that much, I'll be replacing it with a new one long before the battery pack gets to even half the expected life in miles.
As for the battery idea, it seems useful for anyone that plans on driving the car quite a bit, although it seems like a big gamble since you don't know what the replacement will actually be when needed. Will you get the $25,000 top end replacement (MUCH better than today's battery), or the one equivalent to the one you are replacing (probably around $5,000 in 5-7 years). Seems impossible for them to guarantee anything since Tesla doesn't know what will be available down the road or its cost. Lucky for me this option is pointless as I only anticipate putting 4-5k miles per year on mine. If I like the car that much, I'll be replacing it with a new one long before the battery pack gets to even half the expected life in miles.
The speed at which the pound/euro and pound/dollar plunged took a lot of people by surprise. It's possible that if Lotus were buying the glider panels from France, they have seen an effective price increase that is now being passed on. How far ahead do you hedge? Just speculation.
SByer
'08 #383
Ok, so I'm going to be the weird one in the group and say that, now that I have the e-mail from Elon, I'm actually kinda happy. Yes, I'm going to be paying more for options - I'm not fond of the stereo bundle, but like I said, I was always surprised it wasn't that way. The unbundling of the HPC is a bit of a bait-and-switch, as well.
I'm happy I can now get the carbon fiber top, have options for de-plasticing the interior (though I'd like to see them in person before choosing), and options for the wheels.
I just wish the upgraded motor from the Sport was an option (or getting a Sport upgrade on an '08 was an option), and of course, some information on some of the options (upgraded seats?) would be useful.
Maybe I'm being a bit blase about this, but I kinda sorta expected some fiddling of options to extract more cash out. It's the lateness of it, and the lack of complete information that's put me off.
I'm happy I can now get the carbon fiber top, have options for de-plasticing the interior (though I'd like to see them in person before choosing), and options for the wheels.
I just wish the upgraded motor from the Sport was an option (or getting a Sport upgrade on an '08 was an option), and of course, some information on some of the options (upgraded seats?) would be useful.
Maybe I'm being a bit blase about this, but I kinda sorta expected some fiddling of options to extract more cash out. It's the lateness of it, and the lack of complete information that's put me off.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
09's can upgrade by just paying for the Sport package, with no delivery change.
08's can upgrade by pushing their delivery to July/August, AND paying the 09' base price (110k) instead of the 08' base price (92 or 99k depending on the commitment date) PLUS the Sport package. The wait and 30-38k price diff is pretty much disuading almost every 08' order from upgrading.
08's can upgrade by pushing their delivery to July/August, AND paying the 09' base price (110k) instead of the 08' base price (92 or 99k depending on the commitment date) PLUS the Sport package. The wait and 30-38k price diff is pretty much disuading almost every 08' order from upgrading.
Updated Price Increase Analysis
Here's a link to my analysis of the price increase due to the change in the base model and prices of the options.
The New Tesla Prices - Tom Saxton's Blog
Here's a link to my analysis of the price increase due to the change in the base model and prices of the options.
The New Tesla Prices - Tom Saxton's Blog
I think the real goal of offering the Sport mode to 2008 was to sell those final few 2008 spots to new customers. Now they can slip about 30 orders into the 2008 that get delivered in July.
I kind of sort of expected some fiddling of options to extract more cash out of me as well, up until the point they made me push the "lock-in options" button nine months early to keep from "delaying" my car anymore. That "lock-in now" thing is beginning to sound like a familiar ploy essentially to extract more cash out of each Tesla buyer. What happens when we get to VINs 400, 600, 800, etc? The $12,000 battery they want us to ante up for now...is it really only going to be $12K when we actually need it? Doesn't really sound like a "new kind of car company", it sounds more and more like every other car company.
We've played completely by Tesla's rules and I fully planned to honor my commitments as I've done all my life. I guess I naively expected them to do so as well.
Out of the 400 remaining 2008 buyers one would expect a couple of them to be lawyers. It wouldn't bother me a bit if one of them wanted to put together some sort of a class action lawsuit to force Tesla to honor their commitments. Of course there are many problems with that approach, the biggest is that Tesla is holding a good chunk of my cash.
Oh well, maybe getting out now isn't really such a bad deal. I've kind of been wandering how Tesla will survive once Toyota, Nissan, GM, and some of the others actually get into the game.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Prospective Tesla owners not happy about price increases on locked in cars - AutoblogGreen
Looks like we're in the news. Hopefully the bad publicity is enough to get them to turn around (it'll spread quite quickly after it's out there). I don't want the company to become bankrupt from one stupid move.
Looks like we're in the news. Hopefully the bad publicity is enough to get them to turn around (it'll spread quite quickly after it's out there). I don't want the company to become bankrupt from one stupid move.
Woah, check the comments at ABG already...
But as I have said, the change of pound/dollar exchange rates that people are assuming means Tesla are getting a good deal from Lotus on gliders (assuming they are charged in pounds) is even worse *the other way* on pound/euro for parts Lotus may be buying from mainland Europe, such as the body panels. Perhaps they (Lotus) have no choice but to pass this on to Tesla?
But as I have said, the change of pound/dollar exchange rates that people are assuming means Tesla are getting a good deal from Lotus on gliders (assuming they are charged in pounds) is even worse *the other way* on pound/euro for parts Lotus may be buying from mainland Europe, such as the body panels. Perhaps they (Lotus) have no choice but to pass this on to Tesla?
Last edited:
It looks like at least one owner (#395) is cancelling his order because of the price increases.
1-18-2009 @ 12:09AM
Ron Elliott said...
I am number 395. I am not a rich person dabbling in a plaything. I thought I was actually doing some good by supporting a company that was moving us to a more sustainable future. I put $50,000 of my own money down on this car in May of 2007. I withstood the delays. I held in there when it almost seemed the company was going bankrupt. Now, after locking in my options, they pull this on me. Elon Musk does not understand the power of evangelicals to the cause. Steve Jobs does. The same power that can bring people to the cause can turn the same power in a 180 degree turn against the cause. From this day forward, that's what I'm going to do. Elon should know that the people who have bought this car are not stupid. We know that the rolling stock has seen a price depreciation in the English pound from $2.04 to $1.44. He's making more money than he ever thought he would. This is a blatant slap-in-the-face-and-see-if-it-sticks move. I hope that enough people cancel their order so that the whole company goes bankrupt. Movements based on ideology hold companies to a higher plane than companies that do things just to make a profit.
I'd love to have the car, I can't have it now. I don't like the feeling of being screwed.
Ron Elliott
1-18-2009 @ 12:09AM
Ron Elliott said...
I am number 395. I am not a rich person dabbling in a plaything. I thought I was actually doing some good by supporting a company that was moving us to a more sustainable future. I put $50,000 of my own money down on this car in May of 2007. I withstood the delays. I held in there when it almost seemed the company was going bankrupt. Now, after locking in my options, they pull this on me. Elon Musk does not understand the power of evangelicals to the cause. Steve Jobs does. The same power that can bring people to the cause can turn the same power in a 180 degree turn against the cause. From this day forward, that's what I'm going to do. Elon should know that the people who have bought this car are not stupid. We know that the rolling stock has seen a price depreciation in the English pound from $2.04 to $1.44. He's making more money than he ever thought he would. This is a blatant slap-in-the-face-and-see-if-it-sticks move. I hope that enough people cancel their order so that the whole company goes bankrupt. Movements based on ideology hold companies to a higher plane than companies that do things just to make a profit.
I'd love to have the car, I can't have it now. I don't like the feeling of being screwed.
Ron Elliott
Tesla MUST be cash positive within a few months?
After so much negative comments:frown:, I want you to be honest: Tesla could be forced to increase the roadster prices soon in order to get cash flow positive. They can only arrive to that, if the costs of the roadster are now 100% covered by the selling prices. Most probably, this is a very important factor or even a condition to get the 200 million loan guarantee for the model S. Like that, no one can anymore say, that Tesla want a bailout for a luxury gadget - seems very important to me.
Of course even in such a case, we would like to have a more open communication of this step. On the other hand, Tesla's strategies and financial situation can not be fully exposed to the public obviously.
I hope we will hear more about Teslas Model S :wink: in the next few weeks to calm down our anxieties.
After so much negative comments:frown:, I want you to be honest: Tesla could be forced to increase the roadster prices soon in order to get cash flow positive. They can only arrive to that, if the costs of the roadster are now 100% covered by the selling prices. Most probably, this is a very important factor or even a condition to get the 200 million loan guarantee for the model S. Like that, no one can anymore say, that Tesla want a bailout for a luxury gadget - seems very important to me.
Of course even in such a case, we would like to have a more open communication of this step. On the other hand, Tesla's strategies and financial situation can not be fully exposed to the public obviously.
I hope we will hear more about Teslas Model S :wink: in the next few weeks to calm down our anxieties.
Similar threads
