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Tesla introduces time-of-day Supercharger rates at select locations

Discussion in 'North America' started by MarcoRP, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Feathermerchan

    Feathermerchan Active Member

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    In Texas we have the problem of the PUC not allowing a 'wires company' (ie the local regulated company that connects the grid to your house but does not sell electricity at retail) to employ batteries to stabilize the grid and save customers money.
     
  2. slmitchell737

    slmitchell737 Member

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    Folsom
    I love everything about TOU
    Just wish there was an app that could consider price and tou during route planning.
     
  3. ka9q

    ka9q Member

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    That's something I've been unclear about for some time. So you pay three separate demand charges every month, one for each rate period, and not just the largest of the three? That sure adds up fast.

    Does Tesla or the utility own the transformers at their supercharging sites? The utilities obviously work transformer costs and losses into the different rates for each delivery voltage but we don't know if those tariffed numbers reflect reality. It makes sense that the demand and energy charges would be higher at lower voltages since the transformer and its losses becomes the utility's responsibility, but it's interesting that the meter charge is higher at the higher voltages. I suppose those meters are made in smaller quantities and/or cost more to service.
     
  4. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the actual cost of the meters has anything to do with it. They just want to collect a minimum amount for the fact that the service and transformer and everything is there, even if you don't use it. Then when you do use it, they really get to charge you.
     
    • Informative x 1
  5. Feathermerchan

    Feathermerchan Active Member

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    So Rates 101
    As a company you buy stuff and resell it or charge others who use it. You have to receive enough revenue to make a profit worthy of investors.
    So if you buy a transformer and connect it to the grid, and buy a meter you have to charge enough to recover your cost and make some profit. The transformer size, proportional to cost, is determined by the maximum consumption rate (in kilowatts). In fact there is a whole capacity cost from the meter back to the power plant that is recovered by the demand charge. That capacity cost is amortized over time so it is not collect all at once on the first bill. It is charged monthly. The demand varies monthly so the amount charged varies monthly but the rate is designed to cover the cost of the capacity including maintenance.
    If the customer wants to own the transformer then that part of the capacity cost is removed from the rate he pays. But unless otherwise agreed, he is on the hook for maintenance and replacement. Some larger customers go this way. When I worked, we also had some customers who had their own substation and took delivery at 138,000V. One such was the steel mill southwest of Dallas. Their peak demand was about 150MW. That is 150,000kW.
    Variable costs that is costs proportional to usage are billed on a consumption (kWh) basis. Mostly that is fuel.
    Since residences have very similar load shapes we can cover all costs fairly with a consumption (per kWh) charge. Commercial customers have a very variety of load shapes so a uniform consumption rate is not fair giving undercharging some and overcharging others.
    Metering costs are born by the customer. A residential meter is typically capable of 240V single phase and 200A. A commercial customer may take power delivery at 480V and 800A so more expensive metering must be used and is aid for by a larger customer charge.
    You can imagine the metering cost of a customer taking power at 138,000V and several hundred Amps is very high. They have a higher customer charge based on that high cost.
     
    • Informative x 2
    • Helpful x 1
  6. mociaf9

    mociaf9 Active Member

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    The utility.
     
  7. mociaf9

    mociaf9 Active Member

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    This is the first I have seen a supercharger with TOU pricing outside of CA: Supercharger - Tigard, OR

    The original comment also said they had seen it in the Seattle area as well.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative x 1
  8. loquitur

    loquitur Member

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    San Francisco
    Observed this south of San Francisco, CA recently, when I started supercharging near 3:45 pm,
    then seeing the TOU notice from the map screen for that location kicking in at 4:00 pm with a rate 50% higher.

    I wondered which rate would apply (or a blend of both) if I overstayed. At first the charge on
    the screen seemed to jump at 4:00pm, with my total bill being $21.06 at the end. I didn't keep precise
    notes on kWh used over which interval, but amusingly, when I got home to check the Tesla account
    charge it was only $14.04 -- the starting rate to the penny!

    I'm not sure if I'd rely on this gift, thinking that I'll now plan to finish charging by that certain time
    in the future. However, it makes sense this way -- if one was at an old-fashioned
    gas pump and the displayed rate changed during the middle of a tank fill the reaction would be swift.

    Perhaps this is why county, state, or provincial entities have started to regulate that EV "pump"
    digital signage for kWh will be required.
     
  9. tivoboy

    tivoboy Active Member

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    It's pretty simple math, but can be fairly hard to implement this type of dynamic pricing adjustment too easily.. Tesla may have just said let it be for now.
     
  10. acnetworkoper

    acnetworkoper Member

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    Howell MI
    This is where I love having my MS with Free unlimited supercharging for life.. :) :) :)
     
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  11. Benjamin Brooks

    Joined:
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    San Jose, California, United States
    Somewhat related to the various TOU pricing tiers continuously expanding & changing at the California SuperChargers, but is there really no TMC wiki or other crowdsourced site/google spreadsheet containing the latest TOU (or otherwise) charging pricing at various locations?
    Yes, can manually go check this in the car's nav... but where's the fun in that?
     
  12. brkaus

    brkaus Well-Known Member

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    Me too! I've supercharged 4 times in 3.5 years and 60k miles!
     
    • Funny x 2
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  13. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

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    Agreed... I had no idea that Tesla had implemented TOU charging rates. :cool:
     
  14. Feathermerchan

    Feathermerchan Active Member

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    Too bad they cannot choose their provider in Ca. Some competition is generally better for the consumer.
     
  15. ChrisJ

    ChrisJ Member

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    SF Bay Area (Napa Valley)
    For generation they probably can in some areas of California. But it may not be worth the extra hassle.
     
  16. Mrbrock

    Mrbrock Member

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    Saw this in Petaluma yesterday but it wasn’t really a peak/off-peak timing. It was daytime/nighttime. 9am-9pm was $0.30 and 9pm-9am was $0.09. I think I have a picture on my phone I will post later. $0.09 is cheaper than almost any current PGE TOU home rates (unless there is a super old grandfathered one that is less) so if this was closer to me it would definitely have me supercharging late at night or early morning vs charging at home until I get solar and net metering going. That is about $0.02/mile. ICE cars would have to be 150mi/gal at $3/gal to equal that cost.
     
    • Informative x 1
  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    This is the sterile version of how charges are set, and it actually is a pretty good description of commercial charges. It completely breaks down though with residential due to regulatory overview. If you go to PUC meetings you will hear some variation of the following:
    1. We the utility have to (want to) collect this much revenue to cover expenses. Let's decide who to charge how much to reach that number
    2. We the utility invested this much money last year. We expect a 10% ROI
     
  18. Benjamin Brooks

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    San Jose, California, United States
    I believe this was a promotional Tesla thing for the holiday weekend?
    Tesla tests Supercharger limited time discounts to offset expensive peak demand charges - Electrek
     
  19. tivoboy

    tivoboy Active Member

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    I just realized that tesla is now charging tax in many states, that hadn’t been the case in the past, not last year at least.. so it’s not what is posted in the car when all is said and done.
     
  20. Mrbrock

    Mrbrock Member

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    Yep, we’ll see how the feedback goes and if it worked as planned. I think without a pop up notification it went unnoticed by most people. Maybe we’ll see it each weekend and during holiday travel.
     

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