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Tesla introduces time-of-day Supercharger rates at select locations

Feathermerchan

Active Member
Sep 21, 2018
1,200
994
Euless, Tx
This is the sterile version of how charges are set, and it actually is a pretty good description of commercial charges. It completely breaks down though with residential due to regulatory overview. If you go to PUC meetings you will hear some variation of the following:
  1. We the utility have to (want to) collect this much revenue to cover expenses. Let's decide who to charge how much to reach that number
  2. We the utility invested this much money last year. We expect a 10% ROI

The cost of service for residential has the same components as commercial service but residential customers have similar load shapes across the class where as commercial are not homogeneous. So a rate without a demand component can be designed for residential service and be pretty fair across the residential class.
So demand cost is there in a residential rate but it is hidden the energy (kWh) component. In addition, rates with demand charges are more difficult to explain to the customer and used to be more expensive to meter.
 
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ZoomsansVroom

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
May 3, 2019
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So, piggybacking off this, into 2 way charging, at home, it seems like it would be nifty to have a way to set the car to buy and sell power, based on instantaneous pricing - especially if it could be set to offset the increased demand of when the AC compressor starts, etc...
 

Feathermerchan

Active Member
Sep 21, 2018
1,200
994
Euless, Tx
Zoom- What you propose is certainly technically possible. From the utility standpoint, will you commit to providing the offsetting demand 100% of the time? If so, the utility could bank on that and build a smaller service to your house and never have to build powerplant, and transmission capacity to serve that demand. That could save you some money.
Problem is, that most cannot make that commitment so then what? and who is going to monitor that?
 

ZoomsansVroom

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
May 3, 2019
186
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29577
I was thinking more of a systematic process, as electric cars become more common.

I suppose a mini power wall would be OK for that.

I keep trying to get someone at Tesla to tell me if there’s a way to use a few power walls for that purpose with 3 phase at work, but I don’t get a response.

(we don’t actually use much power, but have a high demand load)
 

kayak1

Member
Jan 21, 2020
177
116
USA, The great state of Maine
I was thinking more of a systematic process, as electric cars become more common.

I suppose a mini power wall would be OK for that.

I keep trying to get someone at Tesla to tell me if there’s a way to use a few power walls for that purpose with 3 phase at work, but I don’t get a response.

(we don’t actually use much power, but have a high demand load)

For 3phase they make/sell a Powerpack - Commercial & Utility Energy Storage Solutions | Tesla you may need transformers as they default to 480v.
 

ka9q

Member
Feb 2, 2014
128
164
San Diego CA
I'm curious, ZoomsandVroom, what delivery voltage do you get at work? Most 3-phase business customers I know are large enough to take it at 277/480V (or higher), but I suppose there's a significant slice of the customer base big enough to need 3-phase but not big enough to need it at 480V. I do see some small businesses apparently wired to three conventional "pole pigs", which I assume means they get 3 phase at 120/208V.
 

Feathermerchan

Active Member
Sep 21, 2018
1,200
994
Euless, Tx
Even pole pigs can supply 277/480. At our church we have 277V for lighting and then a separate transformer to get 120V for plugs.
There are a number of customers with 120/240V Delta. It's handy for medium size customers.
 

FlatSix911

Porsche 918 Hybrid
Jun 15, 2015
6,946
6,897
Silicon Valley
Still the best option available... Harvard Business Review: Tesla Superchargers leave competitors 'in the dust"

"According to the authors, "The reason why consumers still choose Teslas over products like Audi’s eTron or attractive EVs from GM’s Buick, Cadillac, GMC, and Chevy brands is perhaps surprisingly simple. They can drive their Teslas for long distances in full confidence that they will find convenient locations at which to recharge their vehicle. While the incumbent automakers are still focused narrowly on perfecting their electric cars, Tesla has been thinking about the entire vehicle system, with the aim of solving consumers’ core driving needs."

In contrast, looking at the options for legacy automakers, "the network of available [non-Tesla] charging stations is highly fractured across ownership and technology. The next largest network, compared to Tesla, is only 10% as large. Unless you buy a Tesla, you have few options for reliable route planning, guaranteed access, and rapid public charging."
 
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tij664

Member
May 8, 2017
402
548
Turlock, CA
New pricing structure as of today in California: 35 cents/kWh at stations without peak pricing. In addition to that, a lot of new stations have been added to time of use pricing which is 20 cents/kWh off peak and 40 cents/kWh peak now with peak hours of 10 AM to 7 PM. Also it looks like stations that require to pay for parking are now charging a reduced 20 cents/kWh all day to compensate for parking charges. There’s definitely some positives here including making stations with paid parking palatable and useful again.
 

tfan2018

Member
Apr 14, 2018
117
28
USA
New pricing structure as of today in California: 35 cents/kWh at stations without peak pricing. In addition to that, a lot of new stations have been added to time of use pricing which is 20 cents/kWh off peak and 40 cents/kWh peak now with peak hours of 10 AM to 7 PM. Also it looks like stations that require to pay for parking are now charging a reduced 20 cents/kWh all day to compensate for parking charges. There’s definitely some positives here including making stations with paid parking palatable and useful again.

Nice find. The hours are reasonable and still allow us to get errands done at Target etc without having to go super late in the evening. This pricing scheme will definitely open up more availability during the day.
 
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FlatSix911

Porsche 918 Hybrid
Jun 15, 2015
6,946
6,897
Silicon Valley
More information from Electrek... Tesla introduces new 50% Supercharging discount at night in California to help with capacity - Electrek

Now the automaker is introducing another type of Supercharger discount again in California, one of Tesla’s most important markets.
Several California-based Tesla owners are reporting having received this message in their in-app notifications:


Avoid the rush and save 50% on your charging fees before 10 a.m. and after 7 p.m. at all Superchargers in California’s major metro areas.
For specific rates and eligible sites, tap the Supercharger map pin on your in-car touchscreen.
The focus on urban Supercharger stations appears to aim to incentivize Tesla owners who regularly use Superchargers as their main way of charging, mainly for apartment dwellers who might have difficulty getting home charging, to charge at night in order to reduce daytime usage and wait times.
 
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wwu123

Member
Apr 11, 2017
429
355
Silicon Valley, CA
New pricing structure as of today in California: 35 cents/kWh at stations without peak pricing. In addition to that, a lot of new stations have been added to time of use pricing which is 20 cents/kWh off peak and 40 cents/kWh peak now with peak hours of 10 AM to 7 PM. Also it looks like stations that require to pay for parking are now charging a reduced 20 cents/kWh all day to compensate for parking charges. There’s definitely some positives here including making stations with paid parking palatable and useful again.
So we were on a rare road trip this week in my wife's Model 3, and supercharged for a short bit to make it home to the Bay area. The one we used a few hours from home had no peak pricing so 35 c/kwh as noted, but I was perusing the navigation map and the new 20/40 c/kwh TOU rates closer to home (I normally can't see them as my Model S has FUSC and thus displays no prices on the map or pop-up's). Curiously I saw that a handful of Superchargers in the San Jose area have a flat rate of 20c/kwh 24x7. These are not in paid parking locations either, one for example is at a nearby Target, near another Supercharger a mile away that does have the 20c/40c TOU rates.

Anyone know the reason some don't have the higher flat or TOU rates? It's a very reasonable rate given my home PG&E rate is 25c/kwh for Tier 1. Only thing I can think of is these locations are larger, recent Supercharger sites that have many stalls and almost never full (yet).
 

mociaf9

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
2,885
5,966
CA
Anyone know the reason some don't have the higher flat or TOU rates? It's a very reasonable rate given my home PG&E rate is 25c/kwh for Tier 1. Only thing I can think of is these locations are larger, recent Supercharger sites that have many stalls and almost never full (yet).
Hard to spitball possible reasons without having a list of which exact superchargers have which pricing. Maybe it's the urban superchargers (72 kW) that have the lower flat rate?
 

Feathermerchan

Active Member
Sep 21, 2018
1,200
994
Euless, Tx
If the SC site is getting it's power from an existing commercial establishment (like Target) it would probably mirror their rates.
If they are buying their own power there may not be Time Of Day rates available.
 

kishkaru

Member
Feb 3, 2020
239
254
The Bay, CA
While I appreciate the new "50% discount off peak", what Tesla failed to mention is that they raised the on-peak rates and on-peak hours.

For example, the supercharger nearest to me in San Jose used to be:
On peak: 4pm-9pm, $0.34/kWh (5 hours)
Off peak: 9pm-4pm, $0.24/kWh

And now its:
On peak: 10am-7pm, $0.40/kWh (9 hours)
Off peak: 7pm-10am, $0.20/kWh

So sure, it's "50% off", but the on-peak cost has also been raised and the 50% discount is based on the new $0.40/kWh rate, and not the old rate.
And not only that, and perhaps more importantly, the on-peak hours have been increased from 5 hours (4-9pm) to 9 hours (10-7pm)!

I don't have home charging, so I rely on my local supercharger for all my charging needs. I used to go to the supercharger during my lunch hour to charge up during off-peak (for both rates and traffic), but now I can't do that anymore. Now I have to go after 7pm, but likely after 9pm because around 7-9pm it's still super busy during dinner time. I only found out about this new on-peak hours adjustment after receiving my latest charging bill this week for charging at noon. It was $22 which is almost double what I usually pay, which is around $13 (for ~55 kWh of energy).
 
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Feathermerchan

Active Member
Sep 21, 2018
1,200
994
Euless, Tx
I suspect the rates from the utility determine what Tesla is billing you. From a utility perspective, noon is definitely on peak.
As to the on peak rate being higher than the previously charged average, it has to be. You cannot simply discount part of the product without raising the other part or you'll go out of business.
 
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tivoboy

Active Member
Jun 12, 2018
1,713
3,996
palo alto, ca
Yeah, PG&E rates have gone up quite a bit in the past several months.. they got approval from the power commission to raise rates to pay off their fine. My residential Tier rates have gone up nearly 25% in the past year.
 
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miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,572
6,378
Los Altos, CA
I suspect the rates from the utility determine what Tesla is billing you. From a utility perspective, noon is definitely on peak.
As to the on peak rate being higher than the previously charged average, it has to be. You cannot simply discount part of the product without raising the other part or you'll go out of business.
In California, noon is not Peak. The current commercial and residential TOU rates are all Peak during the 4-9pm period. The duck curve is in full effect here due to the amount of solar on the grid.

CAISO Net Demand 2021-04-15.jpg

 

kishkaru

Member
Feb 3, 2020
239
254
The Bay, CA
Yeah, PG&E rates have gone up quite a bit in the past several months.. they got approval from the power commission to raise rates to pay off their fine. My residential Tier rates have gone up nearly 25% in the past year.

To be clear, I'm not complaining about the new rates. Tesla is an energy provider and they're welcome to set whatever rates they want. We can decide as the consumer to pay the rates and consume the energy or not.

What I am complaining about is Tesla's transparency about this change, or lack thereof:

Iuqs97.md.png


They mentioned "50% off peak supercharging rates", which I assumed for my supercharger meant $0.34 / 2 = $0.17/kWh, great! But unfortunately they raised the on-peak rate to $0.40/kWh.

But what they didn't mention at all was them raising the peak rate price and adjusting the peak hours to 9 hours total (up from 5). They mentioned "before 10am and after 7pm", but I assumed they meant this in addition to the existing TOU rates for 4-9pm.
 
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