Tesla Master Plan: GM got there first

[McRat]

Honestly, I'm tired of people from the coasts behaving like everything is centered on the way they live. This kind of pervasive attitude I encounter on the Internet and in real life is extremely off putting. Frankly, it's a big reason Donald Trump won the election and why his supporters tolerate his behavior: they are tired of people acting like the rest of America doesn't exist.

The Bolt may work for you, and it works for Jeff N, but there are large swaths of America where it won't work. Until GM sells a car that can work as well as an ICE car nearly everywhere, they haven't gotten to Tesla's goal. It's that simple.

Honestly I'm tired of people who live in regions with virtually no EV sales whatsoever whining about nobody making a perfect EV just for them, just so they have one they won't buy.

And while the 'Coasts' might be Soviet satellite countries, they didn't vote for your hero Trump, you folk did.

 

[McRat]

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Honestly I'm tired of people who live in regions with virtually no EV sales whatsoever whining about nobody making a perfect EV just for them, just so they have one they won't buy.

This is a circular argument and completely nonsensical.

And while the 'Coasts' might be Soviet satellite countries, they didn't vote for your hero Trump, you folk did.

Enjoy the next 4 years, or perhaps 8 since the elitists still seem clueless about why they keep losing.

 

[Skotty]

How fast are people driving in CA? The highest interstate speed limit in MO is 70, and at 75 MPH you are already passing most others on the highway. As for tickets, I'm actually less concerned about tickets, and more concerned about what a ticket might do to my insurance rates.

The 99/100 thing is highly dependent on local laws. The last time I got a ticket in MO, which admittedly was a long time ago, I learned that anything less than 21 MPH over the limit, and you can just mail in your ticket based on the cost chart shown on the ticket. That would have been about $80 for my ticket. However, since I was slighly above that 21 MPH limit, I had to actually go to court, where I was slapped with a $500 ticket for briefly doing 80 in a 55 zone, despite it being a first offense on a straight empty stretch of road where i merely sped up to that speed then slowed back down because I had tweaked my carbeurator settings; I wasn't even cruising at that speed. That was back around 1995 I think, and it was a hell of a lot of cash for a broke young adult. I've never forgiven the courts and highway patrol for that. As far as I'm concerned, they still owe me about $400.

 

[McRat]

How fast are people driving in CA? The highest interstate speed limit in MO is 70, and at 75 MPH you are already passing most others on the highway. As for tickets, I'm actually less concerned about tickets, and more concerned about what a ticket might do to my insurance rates.

The 99/100 thing is highly dependent on local laws. The last time I got a ticket in MO, which admittedly was a long time ago, I learned that anything less than 21 MPH over the limit, and you can just mail in your ticket based on the cost chart shown on the ticket. That would have been about $80 for my ticket. However, since I was slighly above that 21 MPH limit, I had to actually go to court, where I was slapped with a $500 ticket for briefly doing 80 in a 55 zone, despite it being a first offense on a straight empty stretch of road where i merely sped up to that speed then slowed back down because I had tweaked my carbeurator settings; I wasn't even cruising at that speed. That was back around 1995 I think, and it was a hell of a lot of cash for a broke young adult. I've never forgiven the courts and highway patrol for that. As far as I'm concerned, they still owe me about $400.

In Kali, 15 over can trigger a Reckless, which is 2 point offense like a drunk driving. It is at the officer's discretion to cite you for it.
We also now have a Over 100 ticket, which is also a 2 point. In theory at least, you could pickup all 3 the win, 6 points, by being drunk, over 100, then reckless due to speed.

People USED to drive a lot faster in California. It's the birthplace of drag racing, the NHRA, and SCTA.

Now we would rather do our social networking at 10 mph under the posted speed in the fast lane.

 

[Skotty]

In Kali, 15 over can trigger a Reckless, which is 2 point offense like a drunk driving. It is at the officer's discretion to cite you for it.
We also now have a Over 100 ticket, which is also a 2 point. In theory at least, you could pickup all 3 the win, 6 points, by being drunk, over 100, then reckless due to speed.

People USED to drive a lot faster in California. It's the birthplace of drag racing, the NHRA, and SCTA.

Now we would rather do our social networking at 10 mph under the posted speed in the fast lane.

Oh, wait a minute. Were you mocking them for using such a high speed (75), rather than low speed? I misunderstood that, if so.

As for EVs per capita, I think that's not always fair metric. It can unnecessarily disadvantage people due to demographics of their area and also worsen the chicken and egg problem.

 

[McRat]

Oh, wait a minute. Were you mocking them for using such a high speed (75), rather than low speed? I misunderstood that, if so.

As for EVs per capita, I think that's not always fair metric. It can unnecessarily disadvantage people due to demographics of their area and also worsen the chicken and egg problem.

Defining EV range by 75 mph steady state is pointless. Might as well use 99 mph EV range as their benchmark if someone wants to prove EVs have less range than ICE vehicles. No EV is exempt (or ICE) from the rapid decay of economy at higher speeds. 190 miles at 75mph is actually not a bad number for EVs. Ask MS60 folk.

It's not so much Chicken and Egg as 'keep the chicken alive so we can have eggs'. If >50% of eggs are being sold in California, it is certainly wise to feed the chickens tofu with granola instead of biscuits and gravy.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Defining EV range by 75 mph steady state is pointless. Might as well use 99 mph EV range as their benchmark if someone wants to prove EVs have less range than ICE vehicles. No EV is exempt (or ICE) from the rapid decay of economy at higher speeds.

It's not so much Chicken and Egg as 'keep the chicken alive so we can have eggs'. If >50% of eggs are being sold in California, it is certainly wise to feed the chickens tofu with granola instead of biscuits and gravy.

As relevant to the thread itself, the Master Plan is to bring the EV into the mainstream. So rather than looking at the spread of EVs as it is currently (in the lower cost end made up of mostly short range vehicles with little charging infrastructure), the goal is to have it spread similar to any old ICE car.

Again, the Bolt would have failed to reach that goal if it ends up only selling similar to the 1st gen Leaf (~40-60k annually). It has to reach sales similar to ICE vehicles of its price class to do so.

 

[bxr140]

These two points are most pertinent:

The Bolt...its charge rate is too slow for convenience.

Convenience? Relative, I suppose. Up to the user to decide. Some people think Tesla's rates are plenty fast, others think they're too slow...

As far as the numbers go though, in a world where one-ups are expected, GM took 5 years to really underwhelm on this one. Tesla 2012 = 90kw. GM 2017 = 80kw. That math just doesn't check out for me.

IF the Bolt had Supercharger-level network support...

Indeed. The Bolt is a legit local connected to a small charging network. That GM has no control over the Bolt's charging network is going to prolong the Bolt's rise out of niche-dom. Tesla has sucked up most of the early adopters who are willing to deal with the problems that Tesla's far superior charging network has uncovered. CCS will, for the forseeable future be inferior to Supercharging; the Bolt's long-distance capability will for the forseeable future be inferior to Tesla.

 

[bxr140]

Defining EV range by 75 mph steady state is pointless.

Sure it is. Most people drive somewhere around that speed on intercity travels. I drive that speed all the time in California, including much of the time I spend in Southern California.

For local driving--trips that don't need DCFC--the Bolt is a fine machine. Half the price and more range than the cheapest Tesla is a good deal. Get on almost interstate and it would be disingenuous to call the Bolt anything but a spade.

 

[McRat]

Sure it is. Most people drive somewhere around that speed on intercity travels. I drive that speed all the time in California, including much of the time I spend in Southern California.

For local driving--trips that don't need DCFC--the Bolt is a fine machine. Half the price and more range than the cheapest Tesla is a good deal. Get on almost interstate and it would be disingenuous to call the Bolt anything but a spade.

Fastest Interstate Average Speeds, Top Five States (TomTom):

The study found that Mississippi has the fastest roads, with average speeds of just over 70 mph, this while posted speed limits ranging from 65-70 mph. The top five fastest states in the US is completed by New Mexico (70 mph actual average, 70-75 mph posted speed limits), Idaho (70 MPH actual average, 65-75 mph posted speed limits), Utah (70 mph actual average, 65-75 mph posted speed limits) and Alabama (70 mph actual average, 60-70 mph posted speed limits).

 

[Cosmacelf]

What was this thread about? Oh yeah, I was the OP. In the absence of a moderator, can you guys please stop getting upset at each other's posts on crap that very few people care about? And anti-citizen, keep politics out of these threads. And McRat, you're a smart guy, so can you let things go and not reply to every little picky thing?

 

[bxr140]

Fastest Interstate Average Speeds, Top Five States.

I guess I don't drive 75 down the 5 every month then...getting passed by more cars than I pass...

People drive fast when they can. Averages are just that.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I guess I don't drive 75 down the 5 every month then...getting passed by more cars than I pass...

People drive fast when they can. Averages are just that.

Yep. I drive down 5 at 75-80 mph and I still have to let plenty of people pass me.

The average speeds in that statistic probably includes commuting time and routes. On the road trip routes (where DC charging matters the most), the speeds are definitely higher.

 

[McRat]

Yep. I drive down 5 at 75-80 mph and I still have to let plenty of people pass me.

The average speeds in that statistic probably includes commuting time and routes. On the road trip routes (where DC charging matters the most), the speeds are definitely higher.

Naw. You just don't cover 300 miles in 4h00m daily. You simply think you do. You don't even realize when those two trucks pass each other and there are 300 cars behind them, that you aren't going 80 anymore.

I-5 is flyover anyhow. What a boring road.

20 years ago, you might do 4h runs to SF from LA. It's not as common anymore.

"Most" driver are not "Most" drivers anymore, and haven't been for a long time. You can thank the Cellphone.

 

[McRat]

I guess I don't drive 75 down the 5 every month then.....

You might, but then again you aren't Most. 5h00m is what it should take at 75, SF/LA.

 

[McRat]

What was this thread about? Oh yeah, I was the OP. In the absence of a moderator, can you guys please stop getting upset at each other's posts on crap that very few people care about? And anti-citizen, keep politics out of these threads. And McRat, you're a smart guy, so can you let things go and not reply to every little picky thing?

Sorry, but I'm buying the theory that in California, with DCFC everywhere, that a 190 mile range on a EV at 75 mph sustained is useless for 400 mile runs. Gotta call bull.

And I call bull that you'll impede traffic at the posted speed on interstates when you drive correctly. Or that you'll get run over.

When you are 22,000 lb combined, you give up speed. Comes with the territory. When you need to stretch EV range, you give up tailgating soccer moms in SUVs in the fast lane. You relax, run 65 mph and wildly extend your range for long hauls.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Fastest Interstate Average Speeds, Top Five States (TomTom):

The study found that Mississippi has the fastest roads, with average speeds of just over 70 mph, this while posted speed limits ranging from 65-70 mph. The top five fastest states in the US is completed by New Mexico (70 mph actual average, 70-75 mph posted speed limits), Idaho (70 MPH actual average, 65-75 mph posted speed limits), Utah (70 mph actual average, 65-75 mph posted speed limits) and Alabama (70 mph actual average, 60-70 mph posted speed limits).

How did they calculate the averages?

 

[Doug_G]

Just a reminder that this forum is about EVs, not politics. Also we epect to to be polite and respectful, and to refrain from personal attacks. Several of you are flirting with Snippiness.

 

[bxr140]

Sorry, but I'm buying the theory that in California, with DCFC everywhere, that a 190 mile range on a EV at 75 mph sustained is useless for 400 mile runs. Gotta call bull.

What's bull is you misrepresenting the opposing opinion. Why would you make stuff up like this?

Anyone with experience with long distance travel in an EV knows it's all about efficiency at cruising speed. Average speed is irrelevant.