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Tesla may be forced to compensate owners of P85D in Norway

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Torpedo Ted, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. Torpedo Ted

    Torpedo Ted Member

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    Just a heads up - more than 20 owners have filed a formal complaint against Tesla in Norway, because they feel misled about the car's performance. This is right now the top story in the biggest newspaper in the country.

    The complaints are taken seriously, and In my opinion, this does not look good for Tesla. Norway have very strong consumer rights. It looks like this will end up in court, and to be honest, I think Tesla will lose, and forced to offer some kind of compensation, or let the buyers return their cars. 631 P85D cars have been sold in Norway, so all of these will be affected of the outcome.

    I am a owner of P85D and TSLA. So I'm very conflicted. I feel misled, and would definitively not buy P85D had I known what I know today. On the other end, I don't want Tesla to suffer too bad for this... :(
     
  2. ev-enthusiast

    ev-enthusiast Active Member

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    Picture, or it did not happen;)
    Thank's in advance!

    BTW what about selling your Model S and selling your shares if you are that conflicted?
    You should not be forced to own these things, is Norway a free country?
     
  3. vortexz

    vortexz Member

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    what do you mean they misled car's performance ? and why would they do that ?
     
  4. J1mbo

    J1mbo Member

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    This is the nonsense about the marketing bhp and the way the 0-60 time was measured.

    Hopefully the authorities will also look at other misleading marketing statements in the industry, including 0-60 times of ICE and quoted MPG/ CO2 while they are at it.
     
  5. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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  6. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    Tesla should buy back all twenty something P85D at full price and register them in Denmark. And sell them at their leisure.
     
  7. Torpedo Ted

    Torpedo Ted Member

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    See links Matias posted. But in short:


    1. Marketed with 700hp, while it's real performance is around 500hp.
    2. 0-100kmh listed using 1-foot rollout, unlike 0-100kmh listings for previous models, making P85D seem even faster than P85.
    3. When marketing a car with 700HP, you would expect it to perform much better than the P85 with its 420HP. Truth is, 0-100 is only ~0.7s faster to 100kmh, and above 100kmh the performance is almost identical.

    Keep in mind, those who purchased the P versions of Model S, did it BECAUSE of performance - nothing else. If there where minor differences in performance for purchasers of the regular models, the case wouldn't be as strong.


    But let's not discuss that here. This discussion is for speculation about the outcome of this case, and the possible damages Tesla will suffer.
     
  8. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    Finally.
    Looking forward to seeing the case being thrown out of court.

    What then? EU court of human rights?
     
  9. ev-enthusiast

    ev-enthusiast Active Member

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    Be carefull, these folks might even try that;)

    Don't these people realize that their behaviour looks a bit childish?
     
  10. ev-enthusiast

    ev-enthusiast Active Member

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    #10 ev-enthusiast, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
    Be carefull, they might even try this;)

    Don't these folks realize that they look a bit childish to the public?

    BTW I only found press mentions like these:
    Tesla P85D Voted Coolest Car In Norway
    Norwegian Drivers Set New Tesla Model S Distance Record: 450 Miles (Video)
    Demand For Dual-Motor Tesla Model S In Norway Soars
    Tesla Motors Inc To Heat Up Norwegian EV Market; Here’s Why
    Did not find any press mention on the first page of any of these norwegian newspapers:
    Aftenposten
    , found a small report here;
    http://www.dagbladet.no/
    http://www.dagsavisen.no/
    http://www.vg.no/, small report, again not on first page
    Can you please provide the newspaper that is reporting on first page about this issue?
    Thank's in advance!
     
  11. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    The article is postet in VG Norways most read online and offline newspaper. link here
    I agree this might be a silly case but this in addition to lousy service in Norway is not promising for Model X sales.

    Cobos
     
  12. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

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    #12 AustinPowers, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
    These owners that are taking Tesla to court should really get their priorities straight.

    Plus, they should begin by appreciating how good they have it in Norway, compared say to Germany. Massive EV subsidies, tax breaks, free toll roads, and the like. Nothing like that over here. All we get is at most a few hundred Euros in road tax over a ten year period, plus the possibility for towns to let EVs use the bus lanes or free parking spaces (which incidentally almost now town council is currently planning to do/offer). Most of us over here couldn't even afford a P85D.

    And anyway, 500 hp, 700 hp? Plus 0.7 seconds faster acceleration? What difference does it make in everyday driving? Norway afaik has very strict speed limits on most of their roads, no limit-free Autobahns either. So really, these owners should get on with life and be happy with the great performance car they have.

    First world problems indeed, especially taking into account the current refugee crisis situation we have in Europe, with literally millions of displaced and practically homeless people, individuals, families, kids, babies. That is a problem worth thinking about. Even in our rural area, new refugee camps are popping up in every town. School sport arenas are re-purposed, as are barracks, empty business buildings etc. Basically every usable empty building that is available - and it is still by far not enough. The whole situation is beginning to put a huge strain on society, in many countries all over Europe. I think our US forum members might not even be able to imagine the true scope of this immense crisis and the effects it is having currently.

    Honestly, as much as I understand being unhappy about carmakers' actions sometimes (we have a VW diesel after all - the Dieselgate version that is!), I still know how to set things in perspective.
     
  13. ev-enthusiast

    ev-enthusiast Active Member

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    Exactly this^.
    This is obviously getting very very ridiculous folks.
     
  14. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    I completely support the move.
    If those people feel they are victims of false advertising, going to court is the right way.

    That is how issue can be resolved. They have to list their complaints/demands and tesla gets opportunity to explain their actions. And a third party then decides what is the matter. If there was something really wrong tesla did, they should be compensated. No matter the subsidies in other countries, no matter the actual 0-60 time.

    If there was something really wrong, they should be compensated. But if the court decides there was not, they should pay all the legal fees and be ordered to somehow compensate Tesla for the smearing of their brand.

    This is the way, not open letters, not forum complaining, not media ****-storm.
     
  15. Spidy

    Spidy Member

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    #15 Spidy, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
    Of course it's a first world problem. The whole car is a first world problem. It's worth more than millions of people will earn in their whole lifetime. What is ridiculous is to bring up a unrelated refugee crisis.

    But that doesn't matter. In the end of the day those people brought a performance version of the car for a higher price which now turns out to not perform much better. I mean wasn't the difference like $20k?

    If your BMW 330Cd performed like a 318d you would also complain...

    Then why does Tesla even sell it?
     
  16. aznt1217

    aznt1217 Active Member

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    I always thought you guys were all like Bjorn. haha I kid. On a more serious note, I'm struggling with this... because the question is, what is the remedy? At what point would these owners be happy. The car is capable of doing this with certain conditions. I've read the thread and it seems that they are more taken aback by industry standard testing methodology. This is again a case where Tesla gets unfair extra scrutiny. To be completely fair, saying combined 700hp may not have been right, but then again I'd say it because it's too annoying to say 250 hp in the front 470 in the rear because it's simpler. Most ICE cars state xx hp at the crank, but you expect over 20% power loss due to drive train. Not even factoring things like atmospheric pressure, grade of fuel, etc. but I don't see any articles about this.

    At the end of the day the P85D is putting out comparable performance to high HP gas vehicle performance cars... If these specific owners feel like they were lied to and are so angry. I say Tesla should buy them back. Soon enough the owners will see that they are far worse without it.
     
  17. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    Even if Tesla has to compensate people in Norway, it won't amount to much. I think we're at most talking about a free retrofit of Ludicrous. If we're talking about 500 cars, that adds up to something like $2 million. I think this estimate could be on the high side, given that they changed the language on the site at some point.

    And that is *if* they need to compensate anyone. Personally, I never got the impression from the site that the 700 hp was achievable under any circumstances, and with/without rollout seems like a very minor thing. Both are accepted standards of measuring the acceleration, and Tesla never claimed the figure was without rollout. All in all, I think Tesla has a good case, but it may of course go in the buyer's favour.
     
  18. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    If it is a court order with strong consumer protection, a buyback is the only valid option. Ludicrous does not make 700 hp either (under the definition the people expected, not talking about Tesla's rating system). If it's a settlement like I have seen with ICE cars, then they might get far less than a Ludicrous retrofit (most automakers give a couple hundred dollar service coupon and that's it).

    I think the Denmark group would have the strongest case as their translation was incorrect for the hp part. The Norway translation was correct.
     
  19. SabrToothSqrl

    SabrToothSqrl Active Member

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    These poor, poor, misled people. Buying cars they test drove, felt the acceleration of, and then brought home.

    How awful must it feel for them to be able to afford a P85D, only to know that some numbers on a graph somewhere mean something.

    I tell you, every time I punch the go pedal in my boring old S85, it ticks me off to no end just how some numbers something or other. I mean, I test drove a Model S a few times, and got exactly what I was expecting when I gave them money, and they gave me a car, but dammit, those numbers man! 'cmon Tesla... didn't you know the important of what were we talking about again?
     
  20. Torpedo Ted

    Torpedo Ted Member

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    Nothing childish here.
    FYI, websites are not static. This morning, this case was the BIG TOP article, with a smaller article about TSLA share falling next to it. Right now, there's a new article pretty high up:
    Google Translate


    BTW, Forsiden - VG is the website with most readers in Norway, by far (excl. Facebook/Google). So this is not just a simple article in a car magazine or something like that.


    You are missing the point so badly that I'm not sure it's worth replying, but I'll give it a go.
    I'll give it another try to make you guys understand, using an analogy.


    You want to buy a ridiculously fast car. Bugatti Veyron is advertised with top speed of 400 kmh. Perfect. You could save a ton of money and buy a BMW M5 - but heck, you wanted the fastest car. Car is delivered and is ridiculously fast, but it just won't go faster than 300 kmh. Still fastest car you ever driven, and you won't ever need to drive that fast on a road. But if you knew it only could do 300 - couldn't you have bought the M5 instead?
    You contact Bugatti, asking why it won't do 400 kmh? Their explanation: "That's normal, it won't do 400kmh on a straight regular tarmac road, our testing was done in a slight downhill, on a special kind of surface. Deal with it.". (Then later they release a new version of Bugatti that does actually does 400kmh on a normal road...)


    No matter how much you love Tesla (which I do as well), I just can understand how you can think "this is not an issue, just enjoy your car". If it was the regular Model S, a slight performance loss could possibly be accepted since performance was not the main reason for purchase. This is about the performance version of Model S - people paid $20 000 extra ONLY for the extra performance Tesla promised. You can't just accept it and say "Oh well, the car is pretty good anyway" when you paid a premium for a noticable extra performance, and they don't deliver it.


    Tesla messed up in this case. They even admitted it, by making changes to the websites (correcting HP claims, and informing about 1 foot rollout).

    I don't think the problem here is Norway. How would owners in the rest of the world feel if norwegians got their upgrade for free? They would be forced to give it to everyone asking. And as far as I understand, this is not a simple upgrade, but a very time consuming and thus costly upgrade.

    I took the 700hp with a grain of salt yes, but that's because I was already aware that electric motors are different. You can't expect normal people to be completely aware of how this works. But I still did not doubt that it would be much faster than P85: It's got WAY more power so it's going to be WAY faster, not only during the first 100kmh.

    The with/without rollout is not a minor thing in my opinion. Yes, it's an accapted standard, but it's absolutely not OK to use this standard for one model, and a different standard for another model. It's pretty obvious that they chose the 1 feet rollout timing to make it look even faster than the other versions. At the time there weren't even anything mentioning this, so the 0-100kmh times were undoubtably misleading.

    FYI, the car was not available for test drive. I guess 90% of the cars were delivered before it was available for test drive. But you are still missing the point here.
     

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