Tesla may be forced to compensate owners of P85D in Norway

[stopcrazypp]

I agree it's stupid automakers in the US use it but they do. It seems to largely be a car magazine thing to make the numbers look better.

If you go to a dragstrip, it's still relevant. In Europe, however, I imagine there aren't very many drag strips.

It's the same with the trap speed, which is an average from the last 60 feet. That may seem arbitrary, but that was the only way with the technology at the time. Now it is possible to accurately get the speed exactly at the end of the quarter mile, but trap speed is still specified that way.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

caveat emptor.

I've bought things that have disjointed me. Greatly. My car isn't one of them. I don't care what HP rating says. I go by how it makes me feel.

 

[vgrinshpun]

I am wondering if any of slightly more than 3 percent of unhappy P85D owners from Norway are aware that their cars are rated according to the European Regulation ECE R85. The motor hp, as defined in this regulation is determined by a test without any consideration of the battery power output. According to Norwegian rules the motor hp measured according to ECE R85 must be included on the Certificate of Conformity, which is mandatory document required for the registration of a car.

So the question is how can Norwegian authorities rule that Tesla can't use the motor horsepower on their Site, if it is used as part of the official document that shows technical characteristics of the car and is required for the registration? After reading some of the comments from the Norwegian TMC members in this thread it seems that they are not aware of any of this, and are not really interested in learning more.

 

[Cobos]

I'm slighty handicapped right now since our DMV is reporting database maintenance this entire weekend. Though if I've understood correctly the ECE R85 regulation matches what is written on my registration. I've got a S60 and it was sold with about 300 hp. It performs at that level, roughly similar to a 300hp ICE car. And just to add I'm perfectly happy with how my car performs. BUT my registration data says my car has a continous power of about 79hp, which in no way represents the performance I get. I'm guessing this is the level of power the engine can handle effortlessly without overheating. I'm also guessing that is the number required by ECE R85. Without DMV I can't look up the numbers for the P85D but I expect them to be similarily low.
The reason these numbers are irrelevant is that the power level you experience from the car is it's burst power which in my S60s case is about 300hp. Teslas webpage also promotes the 300hp value for my car (or they did when they still sold S60s), and I pay insurance on a 300hp car and not a 79hp car. So the only place you find this number is on the car registration data, which you can also search up on our DMV website, when their database is not down.

So to answer your question, Teslas website is showing the burst hp number which is not shown on any other officiall document. Hence as a buyer of an P85D our only information has been Teslas website and their salespeople. That's where the 690/700hp number comes from and that's what the issue depends on.

Hopefully that made it more clear.

Cobos

 

[Robert.Boston]

Moderator's Note

I've moved eight posts to Snippiness. My apologies for some wheat that got moved with the chaff.

Two reminders:

• This is the Investment forum. Please keep the arc of the conversation on the impact on TSLA.
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Thank you,
Robert

 

[schonelucht]

So the question is how can Norwegian authorities rule that Tesla can't use the motor horsepower on their Site, if it is used as part of the official document that shows technical characteristics of the car and is required for the registration?

Why would you think one and the other are linked? Technically correct data can still confuse customers and if their confusion is exploited to sell cars that ordinary buyers wouldn't have bought otherwise, then it becomes a consumer protection issue. I don't know enough of the Norwegian law to know if that's the case here but I don't see why it would be impossible a priori.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm slighty handicapped right now since our DMV is reporting database maintenance this entire weekend. Though if I've understood correctly the ECE R85 regulation matches what is written on my registration. I've got a S60 and it was sold with about 300 hp. It performs at that level, roughly similar to a 300hp ICE car. And just to add I'm perfectly happy with how my car performs. BUT my registration data says my car has a continous power of about 79hp, which in no way represents the performance I get.

ECE R85 has two ratings, and the EU certificate of conformity has three numbers. Tesla chose to put the continuous number in a lot of registrations (even when the field was supposed to be the maximum), but if you have copy of the EU certificate of conformity, it's going to have the "burst" number (AKA "maximum net power" number):

From P85D certificate of conformity:
27.2 Maximum hourly output: 66kW
27.3 Maximum net power: 193kW (front), 350kW (rear)
27.4 Maximum 30min power: 79kW (front), 90kW (rear)

So combined motor power is 543kW (728hp) and not 515kW? Confusing.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...tions/page28?p=1166701&viewfull=1#post1166701

From what I seen, the registration number is manually filled out by whoever is registering, so that will be up to whoever is doing the registration for the car (in the US it can be the owner itself).

 

[Avenger]

Fukuta motor - not so good.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Fukuta motor - not so good.

Good thing they don't make the motors used in the Model S.

 

[Torpedo Ted]

Norway has been incredibly well treated and favoured by Tesla:

Has is the keyword there. It's clear that Tesla don't care about Norway at all anymore. Norway have by far the worst coverage of Superchargers per Tesla, at least in the bigger markets.

They also have by far the longest waiting times at Service centers - around 5 month for warranty repairs and service. Yes that's right, if I were to call the SC and say that a speaker is broken, they would offer me an apointment in March 2016. It's been like that for well over a year, so it's obvious that they are not doing anything about it.

Think about your own motivations. What are they really? What are you doing to help Tesla succeed? Will the world really be better off, will Norway be better off, if Tesla is "taken down" by some court or agency?

You know, some people bought the Model S simply because they wanted a car. And those people also possibly have the same damands that they would have when buying a car from Toyota.

It's frightning to read how many people think that just because the car is fantastic and Tesla is possibly changing the world, you aren't allowed to complain when you feel misled.

I'll just make it clear that I have NOT made a formal complaint about my P85D. But I fully support those who do.

PS: I heard that there's now over 50 formal complaints. In other words, nearly 10% of the P85D owners in Norway are not satisfied with their purchase. I would be a little worried if I were Tesla.

 

[Drax7]

The horse power is insufficient , what exquisite selectivity .
This will end up in the Supreme Court.

 

[brianman]

The P85+ was faster than the P85
The P90DL is faster than the P85D

Faster means top speed, no? If so, both of these are incorrect (AFAIK).

- - - Updated - - -

... drag strips. Sure that was entertaining for a while, but let's all grow up just a little.

I found this offensive -- for members of both sides of the discussions. "Entertainment" has nothing to do with why I've followed (and somewhat participated in) the topics. I'd prefer that none of the thread on the related topics were born -- but that's in the hands of Tesla. Blaming the customers and enthusiasts for taking issue and discussing it is simply wrongheaded.

 

[Spidy]

They also have by far the longest waiting times at Service centers - around 5 month for warranty repairs and service.

I'm actually surprised this hasn't triggered some complaints at a consumer group.

 

[Cobos]

I'm actually surprised this hasn't triggered some complaints at a consumer group.

I think part of that is because Tesla has been good at prioritizing problems that lead to non-drivable car. For those they usually get it done in a few days. But squeeks and rattles, single door handle not working etc the wait time can be upto 9 months actually. The other part is Tesla IS expanding service capability, but it takes time to find a suitable workshop, getting good mechanics is hard in Norway. Around Oslo they added a largish sc with like 15-20 carlifts on the eastern side. But that got swamped by commuters coming from the northeast of Oslo. So they this october added a even larger sc about 1 hour drive northeast of Oslo. And around january 2016 the huge sc west of Oslo will open as well. So slowly slowly it's getting better, but I suppose the backlog will keep the wait times up for a while.

And of course not to mention service time is hard to complain about since Tesla hasn't promised anything, and as mentioned for those cases where the product is not usable (i.e. you can't drive the car) the service is just a few days.

Cobos

 

[Torpedo Ted]

Tesla have now basically admitted that 700HP was misleading. They have removed any HP info from the sales page, and updated their website with actual HP performance numbers.

Tesla now says P85D delivers 463 HP: Model S | Tesla Motors

But of course - since the car is very fast, we are not allowed to complain about this. :-/


PS: The norwegian Consumer Council have recieved 52 formal complaints about P85D, and are going to meet with Tesla November, 2nd.

 

[mrdoubleb]

Tesla have now basically admitted that 700HP was misleading. They have removed any HP info from the sales page, and updated their website with actual HP performance numbers.

Tesla now says P85D delivers 463 HP: Model S | Tesla Motors

But of course - since the car is very fast, we are not allowed to complain about this. :-/


PS: The norwegian Consumer Council have recieved 52 formal complaints about P85D, and are going to meet with Tesla November, 2nd.

Not quite sure what you see as removed. They did add new language though.

 

[DrGuest]

Tesla Motors Inc Accused Of False Advertising Claims In Norway


http://www.technbob.com/tesla-motors-inc-accused-of-false-advertising-claims-in-norway-2284529/2

"The thread had 70 pages of comments and discussion as of Wednesday morning after the news of the Norwegian Consumer Council mediation in the hp case broke. No additional info on the horsepower problem of Tesla is available for now, but chances are that more complaints will crop up from places other than Norway."

 

[Spidy]

Tesla has reached a settlement with disgruntled owners (Google Translate)

 

[Andyw2100]

People who were interested in this thread, and are still watching it, would probably be interested in this thread now:

Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits