I did. You were wrong and did backflips to avoid admitting it. Still waiting for the plethora of models you claim exist. Post a list.
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Tesla Model 3 Acceleration Software Limited? [model 3P]
- Thread starter skylarracing
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Literally every gas car that exists if you want to get into it.
Take your pick from old front wheel drive minivans, to smart cars, to old cars, to new cars, to disgusting diesel pickups blowing unburnt diesel out the hood, to an ice cream truck. 60 ft, 0-60, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and none of the Teslas can even play in the 1 mile.
Never once did I say an unmodified gas car, I said manufacturers cars. But I'm sure you didn't go back and read through the posts before responding, like I suggested you do. I can play the splitting hairs on a technicality as well.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Here again, is what you actually said
Sam1 said:
No- they do not.
Your moving the goalposts to "if you take those cars, then dump a ton of $ into warranty voiding mods, THEN maybe you can..." isn't fooling anyone.
You only moved the goalposts there after multiple people pointing out your claim was nonsensically false and asked you to list the cars you thought qualified, which you keep being unable to do and have now tried to drag us over to "Well what if you strap a JATO rocket to a Dodge Caravan? HUH???"
I mean, it's a funny dance, but it's getting a bit old.
There are a number of ICE cars that are faster, they are not cheap but they do exist. The C8 Corvette is probably the best bang for the buck on the list but there are quite a few, Nissan GTR, Audi R8, BWM M5, Dodge Demon before you get into the exotics.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Sure.
A number. Nearly all but the C8 being vastly more expensive, and many being 2 seaters.
So that number is nowhere near his claim of "most manufacturers have similar ICE vehicles"
I wouldn't call a $120,000 2-door (GT-R) as "similar" to a $60,000 sedan. Would you?
Looking at your link, here's the manufacturers with cars as quick or quicker than a 3P (I left off limited run cars you can't get new, and barely could when new)
Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, McLaren (all 5 with several variants- many 2 seaters, and all costing MANY times what a Model 3P does.
Then you've got a bunch of non-exotics (though STILL some 2 doors, and ALL 2-3x the price of the Model 3 Performance...Nissan (the GTR at 2x price), BMW (M5 and M8 at 2x price, Audi R8 (3-4x price), Mercedes (AMG GT 63 at 3x price), and Nissan again (NSX at 3x price). So 4 total car makers.
And lastly... The Chevy Corvette C8... comparably priced.
So... what we note here is there's:
zero manufactures selling a comparable ICE vehicle if you want a sedan or 4-5 seater as quick to 60 (assuming you don't find a vehicle costing 2-5x more to be "comparable")
and
one manufacturer selling a comparable ICE vehicle to 60... if you accept a 2-seater coupe as comparable as long as the price is about the same.
Seems a bit lower than "most" doesn't it?
And even if you ignore price entirely and ignore seating and body type entirely... you still don't get "most" manufacturers offering such a car at all... let alone "comparable" in any sense besides the number of wheels on the thing.
I read your original post and immediately thought uh huh. Here we go. And as it turns out, here we are.
What you said: most manufacturers have similar ICE vehicles that can turn as fast if not faster 0-60
This is not even close to accurate. It’s simple. Post a list containing a vehicle from most manufacturers.
You can’t. You shot mouth off and as every blowhard in history has done when called on it they bail and try to change what they said. You read English right?
“most manufacturers have similar ICE vehicles that can turn as fast if not faster 0-60”
That means what it means. Own it and move on.
yes, and I stand by that. if you had ever been to a racetrack you would know that there are smart cars that will turn 9 second runs and be doing almost 60mph by the time they hit the 60' mark, or dodge minivans, or hyundai's, etc. My assumption is that you also won't have any idea how many feet it takes an M3P to hit 60mph until you go and google it after I brought up this mention; but here you are arguing a point that you don't understand outside of relying on a technical spec that you read online. Every car manufacturer does have vehicles that can turn as fast if not faster times than an M3P. Just because you can't mod a tesla, doesn't mean that everyone else is also constricted.
Have a good night, and if it makes you feel better, I'll concede and say you're right and I'm wrong, and nothing on the planet is faster than your model 3.
Typical of your ilk. Follow up with exaggeration in the other direction now.
I’m glad you’ve seen it wise to bring your charade to an end.
MasterC17
Active Member
To be fair, the G80 M3 xDrive is faster than the Model 3 Performance. 0-60 is similar (~3.2 without rollout), but M3 quarter mile has a faster ET (11.2) and a higher trap speed (122mph) - stock.
I think @Sam1 point is valid - ICE competition is coming fast for the 3 Performance which hasn't gotten any quicker for a few years now despite the fact that we know it is software limited (the Y makes a bit more power using the same hardware).
Now that the S has moved the goal-posts so much further I would thoroughly enjoy a Model 3 Performance with more, and more importantly more linear power.
I think @Sam1 point is valid - ICE competition is coming fast for the 3 Performance which hasn't gotten any quicker for a few years now despite the fact that we know it is software limited (the Y makes a bit more power using the same hardware).
Now that the S has moved the goal-posts so much further I would thoroughly enjoy a Model 3 Performance with more, and more importantly more linear power.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Which is weird, because it's objectively false.
Why stand by an untrue claim after repeatedly being shown it's untrue?
Not as the manufaturer sells them- no.
Your claim was most MANUFACTURERS offer "comparable" vehicles as quick to 60 mph as the Model 3 Performance.
This is not a true statement
"A smart car I gutted and did massive aftermarket modifications to, wiping my butt with the warranty" is not comparable to a Model 3 from its manufacturer.
No, they really do not.
Sure.
The price isn't (they're usually 75-80 stripped, and ~100k decently optioned).
As mentioned, if you want to include cars that cost 100-200k you do, indeed, find a few cars as quick 0-60.
I wouldn't say that's comparable, but if YOU do that's up to you.
It would still make his actual claim that MOST manufactures offer such a car untrue...as Nissan and a few german makers do not constitute "most"
Other than the C8 vette, what car makers have had their "competition" come for the Model 3 P since it's launch in 2018? (I don't mean improved from 4.2 to 3.9 or something, I mean actually caught up to the P)
Nearly all the 2-5x more expensive models mentioned otherwise already existed then.
Curious if replicating the plaid battery pack changes would produce better rolling performance with the same 2 motor drive system, or if those changes were simply needed to support the increased draw. Seems like a redesign of that would be the most reasonable modification to add power...if the m3p didn't fall on its face at higher speeds, it's without a doubt, a 10 second car and close to a 130 trap, if you extrapolate the 1/8 mile 60', trap, and et to gas vehicle performance on the 1/4.
MasterC17
Active Member
2022 Audi RS3 is similar 0-60 (3.1), I don't see any quarter mile times posted yet but they are probably about the same as the G80. And it's about the same price as the Model 3 P.
The G80 is definitely a more expensive car than the Model 3P, but ~$15-$20k isn't a huge gap in this price range and even I will admit the interior is much nicer. People are absolutely going to be cross-shopping them IMO.
It's also not unfair to say that the Model 3 is lacking at higher speeds too, I mean the drop off at ~110mph is massive. That's what makes the Plaid so much faster, it's not the outright power, it's the phenomenal flat power curve. The Plaid doesn't even usually put down full power until like 80mph in most scenarios due to lack of grip. By 80mph the 3P is falling off pretty hard.
I agree that MOST manufacturers don't have a similarly priced option that will beat the 3P in a drag race, but I also don't see the issue with making the 3P faster at this point in its life cycle.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Do you have any objective car mag tests of this? I can't seem to find any (only a C&D estimate for 3.4, and Audis official 3.8 number)
Still, if that's real (esp. if it's not requiring a bunch of special launch mode, prepped surface, etc to get it) then that'd be fair... and we'd finally have one example.
Still pretty damn far from "most manufacturers" but better than 0 I guess
I think most folks would find 20-25% a significant price difference but YMMV.... and that's gonna approach 30-35% if the P ends up eligible for the tax credit (which isn't clear yet they've moved the cap around a few times)
As I say though you could choose to consider that comparable and ignore the price gap-- that'd still put you at 2 manufacturers out of dozens offering a "comparable" car with a comparable 0-60.
Still miles from "THE COMPETITION IS COMING" or "most manufacturers"
I don't think anybody has disagreed with that? Though a few have pointed out that's of no real world difference outside of a race track or perhaps the autobahn.
The issue is there's a months long backlog of orders.
There's literally no motivation or economic benefit to Tesla to changing the car right now when demand significantly outstrips supply.
A refresh once that's no longer the case would make sense? Now though I can't really see any business case for it.
Added bonus- this gives them time with the Plaid S and eventually X to work out any bugs/kinks for the higher RPM motors before mass-producing them for some future 3/Y plaid variants.
AFAIK the main reason the Plaid is so fast at high speeds is the new 20,000 rpm motor- not the battery pack changes.
Do you have any objective car mag tests of this? I can't seem to find any (only a C&D estimate for 3.4, and Audis official 3.8 number)
Still, if that's real (esp. if it's not requiring a bunch of special launch mode, prepped surface, etc to get it) then that'd be fair... and we'd finally have one example.
Still pretty damn far from "most manufacturers" but better than 0 I guess
There is a youtube channel that tested one and got 0-62 in 3.1 (without 1ft rollout). Another channel tested one and got 3.5-3.8. Both were in europe. I dont think the US mags have been given access to them yet to do an instrumented test.
At what point should we expand the performance comparisons beyond 0-60mph times? If you expand the testing to 0-100mph or 1/4mile times the list changes quite a bit. For example, my ZL1 is .4 second slower than the M3P to 60mph but .8 second quicker to 100mph.
How about skidpad, braking performance, lap times? The list changes again. In a few years we are probably going to have EV minivans that can crank out 3 sec 0-60mph times.
C'mon, you just know Dodge will release a sub 3.0 sec Caravan.
How about skidpad, braking performance, lap times? The list changes again. In a few years we are probably going to have EV minivans that can crank out 3 sec 0-60mph times.
C'mon, you just know Dodge will release a sub 3.0 sec Caravan. I would bet money the M3P will get a power/acceleration upgrade within the next 1.5 years. No inside info, I just think that for a company so obsessed with acceleration (Tesla) it's due, and they clearly have the tech for it.
I just bought my M3P last month knowing full well I'm late buying into its current performance. That's fine, I don't have the same level of acceleration craving that many in this thread do. M3P is already plenty fast for me, and there's always a faster car out there or will be soon, that's automotive life. When I think back to my favorite fun sporty cars I've driven, they're not the ones with the quickest acceleration.
Now if Tesla gives the M3P serious sport seats, a really good suspension, firmer bushings, forged wheels, etc all from the factory...yeah I'll be jealous and wish I waited. On the other hand, I think Tesla is more likely to mess up the Model 3 with a yoke, capacitive buttons, and who knows what else we haven't seen coming yet. If that happens I'll be glad I avoided the mess, even if it has a power upgrade.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Yeah that's why I'm not quite ready to count the RS3 yet
Well, that was the actual measure the claim was about... that MOST car makers had comparable vehicles just as quick 0-60.
That's grossly false as we've covered pretty exhaustively.
I don't think anybody's debating there's more cars that are competitive at the 1/4 mile mark than at 0-60.
Though I'm dubious that even then it'd be anywhere near at least 1 model from "most" car brands, especially if you want to stick to anything within a reasonable range of the same price (or care about a useful back seat).
Well, that was the actual measure the claim was about... that MOST car makers had comparable vehicles just as quick 0-60.
That's grossly false as we've covered pretty exhaustively.
I don't think anybody's debating there's more cars that are competitive at the 1/4 mile mark than at 0-60.
Though I'm dubious that even then it'd be anywhere near at least 1 model from "most" car brands, especially if you want to stick to anything within a reasonable range of the same price (or care about a useful back seat).
C'mon, you just know Dodge will release a sub 3.0 sec Caravan.
I shouldn't laugh, if the price is right I might buy it.
MasterC17
Active Member
Do you have any objective car mag tests of this? I can't seem to find any (only a C&D estimate for 3.4, and Audis official 3.8 number)
Still, if that's real (esp. if it's not requiring a bunch of special launch mode, prepped surface, etc to get it) then that'd be fair... and we'd finally have one example.
Still pretty damn far from "most manufacturers" but better than 0 I guess
I think most folks would find 20-25% a significant price difference but YMMV.... and that's gonna approach 30-35% if the P ends up eligible for the tax credit (which isn't clear yet they've moved the cap around a few times)
As I say though you could choose to consider that comparable and ignore the price gap-- that'd still put you at 2 manufacturers out of dozens offering a "comparable" car with a comparable 0-60.
Still miles from "THE COMPETITION IS COMING" or "most manufacturers"
I don't think anybody has disagreed with that? Though a few have pointed out that's of no real world difference outside of a race track or perhaps the autobahn.
The issue is there's a months long backlog of orders.
There's literally no motivation or economic benefit to Tesla to changing the car right now when demand significantly outstrips supply.
A refresh once that's no longer the case would make sense? Now though I can't really see any business case for it.
Added bonus- this gives them time with the Plaid S and eventually X to work out any bugs/kinks for the higher RPM motors before mass-producing them for some future 3/Y plaid variants.
AFAIK the main reason the Plaid is so fast at high speeds is the new 20,000 rpm motor- not the battery pack changes.
You make fair points, My intent was not to argue. At the end of the day, all I am really saying is that Tesla could "unlock" the power the Y has in the 3 with a Firmware Update. It wouldn't be a huge difference, but another 5% boost would pull the 3 into the high 2's I would guess.
I completely agree there is no incentive to upgrade the existing hardware, though I would welcome it. And that is what would be needed for any substantial change.
My point about ICE is this - Turbocharged AWD platforms are becoming the norm and making 400+hp from those platforms is pretty easy, which means the Model 3P won't really stand out amongst the crowd so to speak when it comes to straight line performance in the next couple years. Doesn't mean it will happen tomorrow, but it will happen. So, again, I wouldn't complain about another 5% power boost that we know already exists!
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