TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

Tesla Model 3 Charges as fast as a P100D?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by George S. Bower, Sep 7, 2017.

Tags:
  1. George S. Bower

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2016
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Tonto Basin, Az
    Hello TMC people,

    George Bower here. I have been lurking and reading here for quite a while but have not posted. I write occasional article over at InsideEVs and was considering one on this subject but I need a second opinion.

    Here's my logic. See if you guys can find an error in it.

    Thanks.



    Big battery Model 3 specs:
    Supercharging rate: 170 miles of range per 30 minutes
    Tesla Model 3 Specs: 220-310 Miles Range, 0-60 MPH in 5.1 Seconds - More Details

    P100D charges to 50% in 30 minutes:


    Range of Model S 100D is 334 miles
    Order a Model S

    50% of 334 miles is 167 miles.

    Basically the same as adverised rate for model 3 of 170 miles in 30 minutes

    Make sense?????
     
  2. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    5,368
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    #2 JeffK, Sep 7, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's a quote from the Q2 2017 call.
    Tesla (TSLA) Q2 2017 Results - Earnings Call Transcript | Seeking Alpha

    Your confirmation is already on the Tesla website.
    the press kit says Model 3 LR charges 170 miles in 30 minutes and the charging page (which has been up for a while also lists 170 miles in 30 minutes)

    The charging estimator also confirms 170 miles in 30 min on Model S 100D
    Model S | Tesla
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Informative x 1
  3. GSP

    GSP Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,284
    Hi George,

    Welcome to TMC. I have enjoyed reading your articles at GM Volt and Inside EVs. I have been reading all three sites since their inception, and the old Tesla Motors blog posts with comments before that.

    Your math makes sense to me. The big 100 kWh battery can charge at higher power, storing more kWh in 30 minutes. However the 75-ish kWh Model 3 can cover more miles per kWh, roughly ballencing out to the same miles range per 30 minute charging session.

    GSP
     
    • Like x 1
  4. evster

    evster Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Europe
    #4 evster, Sep 7, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
    Yes, it makes perfectly sense. The video you're posting is a Model X P100D charging. That car with performance motors and the heavy weight consumes about 50% more energy than a long range Model 3. The X P100D is Supercharging at a much faster kW speed than Model 3 LR, but in terms of gained miles per time unit they will be rather equal due to that M3 consumes less Wh/mile.

    If you make the comparison against a Model S 100D for instance, that car will charge more miles/hour than the X P100D even though they charge at the same kW speed and have the same 100kW battery pack.
     
  5. boaterva

    boaterva Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Messages:
    2,894
    Location:
    Northern Virginia, USA
    I don't see why a 'P' would charge any differently... I think Elon meant 100 pack vs other smaller ones. Unless someone has details that escape me, what does weight and motor have to do with kW/hour charging speed?
     
  6. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    5,368
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    #6 JeffK, Sep 7, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
    The P100D will charge at the same kWh as S100D but in miles per minute the 100D will be faster than the P100D due to driving efficiency.

    The video had P100D but math was based off S100D ... 50% is 50% though.

    P100D 157.5 miles (160 ish) / 30 min
    S100D 167.5 miles (170 ish) / 30 min
    Model 3 LR 170 miles / 30 min as reported by Tesla
    Model 3 SR 130 miles / 30 min as reported by Tesla
     
    • Informative x 1
  7. George S. Bower

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2016
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Tonto Basin, Az
    Thx JeffK. In all my googling I didn't run across the earnings call quote. That quote pretty much synches it. I also saw the charging estimator for Model S that says 170 miles in 30 minutes but I could not find which Model S it was for.

    Hi GSP. Thx. Of course I remember you from GM-Volt!!
     
  8. George S. Bower

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2016
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Tonto Basin, Az
    @JeffK

    If the Model 3 charges to 50% in 30 minutes and the range is 310 miles then it seems like the specs on Model 3 should say is charges to only 155 miles in 30 minutes (50% of 310=155)........but the spec says 170.

    This implies to me that Model 3 charges at a higher C rate than model S. Perhaps that is true since these are different cells (2170 not 18650's).

    Do you think Tesla's new 2170's charge at a higher C rate than the 18650's in the P100D?
     
  9. DarthPierce

    DarthPierce Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Seattle
    I think it's that the 310 miles is sandbagged, so it's the same C rate, and the range is REALLY ~335 miles :)
     
  10. boaterva

    boaterva Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Messages:
    2,894
    Location:
    Northern Virginia, USA
    Right... so a larger battery will charge more quickly, definitely. The slight change from the higher efficiency is an added bonus, gotcha.
     
  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    4,358
    Location:
    Colorado
    It would not, but the miles/hour changes because of per mile consumption differences.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    16,131
    It matters if one is measuring "charging rate" in "rated miles / time", which is part of what the OP is doing. Unless I misread.

    Edit: Already covered. Graying myself.
     
  13. insaneoctane

    insaneoctane Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Southern California
    A few folks have mentioned it, but others seem to be talking past it... The greater driving efficiency of the Model 3 allows it to have a lower c-rate and still charge at similar mph.

    Although the model 3 charges at 340 MPH (170 * 2), it is only charging at 43 kWh per 30 minutes (170 / 310 * 78 kWh) or 86 kWh per hour = 86 kW. The 100D is 51 kWh per 30 minutes (170 / 334 * 100 kWh) or 102 kWh per hour = 102 kW. So while the MS charges at higher power, the increased efficiency of the Model 3's ultimate consumption of the energy levels the playing field.
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  14. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    5,906
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Do the different batteries charge at the same rate?
     
  15. DarthPierce

    DarthPierce Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Seattle
    There seems to be some confusion about the meaning of charge rates.

    Charging can be measured as:

    • Miles/hour (range adding rate)
    • kW (or as some people think of it kWh/hour) the electrical charging rate
    • C-rate (this is about batteries themselves and is measured as kW(from above) / kWh(battery size))

    With regard to these 3 charge rates:
    M3 SR vs LR vs MS 100D:
    Miles/hour: 110 170 170
    kW: ~55 ~82 ~105
    C-rate: 1.05 1.05 1.05

    So:
    • They all have the same C-rate since they are all using Li-ion cells with similar enough chemistry
    • Larger packs therefore can store more energy in the same amount of time (higher power)
    • Cars with equal range can charge at equal rates in miles/hour regardless of pack size.
     
    • Like x 5
    • Informative x 2
  16. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    5,368
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    I think it's this as well... but if it's not and the range really is 310 mi then yes the Model 3 is charging at a slightly higher C-rate for those 30 min.
    170*2 / 310 = 1.097 C (averaged over the 30 min)
     
  17. 4x14ers

    4x14ers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Boulder
    The other occasionally important point here is that if you charge at a supercharger that is crowded or operating at less than optimal charge rate, the Model 3 LR will charge at a higher rate (miles/hour) than any other Tesla currently available.
     
    • Like x 4
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    4,358
    Location:
    Colorado
    Per 30 minutes I think
     

Share This Page