Tesla Model 3 Performance vs BMW M3 - The Mic Drop

[StellarRat]

Let's say I take a road trip to my parents place in northern new england. The closest supercharger is over 100 miles away.

So, you just stop in at the in-laws for 10 mins then head home?

 

[voip-ninja]

I don't know many people that take their expensive luxury cars into the "bush". That's usually reserved for pickup and SUVs.

I'll make sure to let my parents who live in a town of 10,000 that's been around since the early 1800's know that they live in "the bush".

 

[mike123abc]

I don't know many people that take their expensive luxury cars into the "bush". That's usually reserved for pickup and SUVs.

I would hardly call I40 the bush... But, there are large gaps (like OKC to Little Rock) - more than 300 miles without superchargers. You can divert hundreds of miles out of the way by going down I30 to Dallas to I35 back up to I40...

Yes once the announced supercharger locations are all built, the interstates of the US will be covered...

 

[Kichwas]

I think he's comparing the overall vehicle not just track performance.

Yeah as soon as they replace the bridge and freeway of my daily commute with a race track I will start caring about track results...

 

[Nocturnal]

If I hadn't received the option to buy a P3 I would be driving an M3 right now.

M3 is still superior on the road course due to heat issues and they do a better job at differentiating the look of the M3 from the standard 3 series. and I could have picked up a manual.

The downsides are that better track ability means that I'd be getting 20mpg during my normal commute rather than 100+, paying more for maintenance, and probably not being as reliable. Definitely not having the same cool factor. (and that whole helping to save the planet deal)

No, I would stop in for a few hours, then go to the only decent hotel in town, which also offers no means to charge an EV.

Do your in-laws not own a dryer?

 

[pdxev]

If I hadn't received the option to buy a P3 I would be driving an M3 right now.

M3 is still superior on the road course due to heat issues and they do a better job at differentiating the look of the M3 from the standard 3 series. and I could have picked up a manual.

The downsides are that better track ability means that I'd be getting 20mpg during my normal commute rather than 100+, paying more for maintenance, and probably not being as reliable. Definitely not having the same cool factor. (and that whole helping to save the planet deal)

Do your in-laws not own a dryer?

I agree with most of your points, but we don't really have a handle on the heat issues on the Model 3. There is likely an effect, but there are certainly disabling heat effects in Internal Combustion vehicles.

 

[voip-ninja]

If I hadn't received the option to buy a P3 I would be driving an M3 right now.

M3 is still superior on the road course due to heat issues and they do a better job at differentiating the look of the M3 from the standard 3 series. and I could have picked up a manual.

The downsides are that better track ability means that I'd be getting 20mpg during my normal commute rather than 100+, paying more for maintenance, and probably not being as reliable. Definitely not having the same cool factor. (and that whole helping to save the planet deal)

Do your in-laws not own a dryer?

All true.

Also, not everyone has an electric dryer, plenty of people have a gas dryer and don't even have AC. You can charge anywhere that has 120V service as long as you don't mind spending the better part of a week doing it.

 

[voip-ninja]

I agree with most of your points, but we don't really have a handle on the heat issues on the Model 3. There is likely an effect, but there are certainly disabling heat effects in Internal Combustion vehicles.

When ICE cars break on the track, especially ones designed to be run on a track by owner enthusiasts who might do a track day once or twice a year it is usually because of a software problem or a part failure.

The thermal limiting on the Model 3 is just inherently part of the limitations of cooling the battery system when it gets hot. Motor Trend and Car and Driver both had failures of the Alfa Romeo that were not "normal" and after those problems were fixed the cars ran fine.

On the plus side, the Model 3 is light years better in this regard than the Model S and I imagine that the Roadster will have the problem resolved completely. Tesla is still going to have to install Super-chargers at tracks if they really want to continue touting that their cars are better at track days than internal combustion cars.

 

[pdxev]

When ICE cars break on the track, especially ones designed to be run on a track by owner enthusiasts who might do a track day once or twice a year it is usually because of a software problem or a part failure.

The thermal limiting on the Model 3 is just inherently part of the limitations of cooling the battery system when it gets hot. Motor Trend and Car and Driver both had failures of the Alfa Romeo that were not "normal" and after those problems were fixed the cars ran fine.

What about the Mustang GT and the Civic Type R?

 

[Nocturnal]

All true.

Also, not everyone has an electric dryer, plenty of people have a gas dryer and don't even have AC. You can charge anywhere that has 120V service as long as you don't mind spending the better part of a week doing it.

I wouldn't recommend an EV for those who routinely drive in the country on longer trips. It's doable, but there is a cost. Maybe in 5 years.

Both the P3D and the BMW M3/M4 are phenomenal vehicles but there are absolutely reasons that someone would choose the BMW over the Tesla.

Yes.

I see this often on the BMW forums (or anywhere). You can easily spot fan boys vs auto enthusiasts. I do suspect though that in 5-10 years the reasons to purchase an M3 over P3 may be gone.

When ICE cars break on the track, especially ones designed to be run on a track by owner enthusiasts who might do a track day once or twice a year it is usually because of a software problem or a part failure.

The thermal limiting on the Model 3 is just inherently part of the limitations of cooling the battery system when it gets hot. Motor Trend and Car and Driver both had failures of the Alfa Romeo that were not "normal" and after those problems were fixed the cars ran fine.

On the plus side, the Model 3 is light years better in this regard than the Model S and I imagine that the Roadster will have the problem resolved completely. Tesla is still going to have to install Super-chargers at tracks if they really want to continue touting that their cars are better at track days than internal combustion cars.

I don't think heat is insurmountable. There are plenty of ways Tesla or the aftermarket could address this. As it stands, when my car goes limp on lap 4 it isn't braking, just hitting it's limits. For charging I use RV outlets at the track which is serviceable, if not ideal. Even the old school track workers were telling me they assumed that at our track (in BF Kansas) there will be dedicated EV chargers sooner or later. Of course this is my daily driver so it will never be a serious track car. That whole "needing to drive to work" deal is a thing.

 

[voip-ninja]

I wouldn't recommend an EV for those who routinely drive in the country on longer trips. It's doable, but there is a cost. Maybe in 5 years.



Yes.

I see this often on the BMW forums (or anywhere). You can easily spot fan boys vs auto enthusiasts. I do suspect though that in 5-10 years the reasons to purchase an M3 over P3 may be gone.

I don't think heat is insurmountable. There are plenty of ways Tesla or the aftermarket could address this. As it stands, when my car goes limp on lap 4 it isn't braking, just hitting it's limits. For charging I use RV outlets at the track which is serviceable, if not ideal. Even the old school track workers were telling me they assumed that at our track (in BF Kansas) there will be dedicated EV chargers sooner or later. Of course this is my daily driver so it will never be a serious track car. That whole "needing to drive to work" deal is a thing.

The best part is that people here accuse me of being a BMW fan-boy and people on the BMW forum accuse me of being a Tesla cheerleader.

Maybe that's a good indicator that I'm a little less partisan than most of the people around here... or there.

 

[commasign]

It seems like everybody is in agreement, but miscommunications continue. I think there are great points to be made about the Tesla being a great option for most people. There are also points to be made that the BMW M3 would be a great option for others. Nobody is trying to be extreme. Can't we all just get along?

If we were talking about Audi vs BMW vs Mercedes, yes. But the problem is gas cars are bad for the environment and bad for health. I dare anyone to challenge the latter cause I'm ready to unload on that.

 

[commasign]

There are plenty of objective metrics where the BMW is better,

Ok, please name some. I'm honestly curious to learn.

 

[docherf]

Let's say I take a road trip to my parents place in northern new england. The closest supercharger is over 100 miles away. That's not even a rural area.

I had this same situation at my in-laws' place. Ii could make it there and back, but driving around much wouldn't work well. So I spent a couple hundred and put a 14-50 in their garage. Problem solved. Those places are still out there, but are getting fewer and fewer with time.

 

[acoste]

These are 2 very different cars. Model 3 is fast in the city, BMW M3 is fast on the highway and on the track.

Based on my calculations the BMW is faster above 48mph. The 40mph-50mph time is still better for the Model 3 P but the difference is small and the M3 beats it with a larger difference on 50mph-60mph.

60-100 mph times for
Model 3P: 5.3s
BMW M3: 4.6s

The Model 3P can run for about 6-7 miles or 5-6 minutes on the track, after then it loses 25% of its performance.

Amateur driver Model 3 Performance on Laguna Seca: 1:46.8
prof driver BMW M4 on Laguna Seca: 1:39.69
prof driver BMW M3 (2010) on Laguna Seca: 1:42.96

The track length of Laguna Seca is 2.238 mi. The average speed for a 1:40s time is 80.5mph. That is higher than the 48mph threshold mentioned above.
The average speed for the BMW M3 2011 was 98mph on the Nurburgring and 7:48s. Model 3 would be slower even if it could complete it on max performance but runs into thermal limitiations before reaching the end.


So the Tesla can be competitive only on tracks where the average speed is low, lots of curves and the race is shorter than 6 minutes.

 

[acoste]

Also the seats in the Model 3 are more city like. Not sport seats. If one wants to use it on track, needs to buy sport seats with firm side bolster.

 

[PhaseWhite]

These are 2 very different cars. Model 3 is fast in the city, BMW M3 is fast on the highway and on the track.

Based on my calculations the BMW is faster above 48mph. The 40mph-50mph time is still better for the Model 3 P but the difference is small and the M3 beats it with a larger difference on 50mph-60mph.

60-100 mph times for
Model 3P: 5.3s
BMW M3: 4.6s

The Model 3P can run for about 6-7 miles or 5-6 minutes on the track, after then it loses 25% of its performance.

Amateur driver Model 3 Performance on Laguna Seca: 1:46.8
prof driver BMW M4 on Laguna Seca: 1:39.69
prof driver BMW M3 (2010) on Laguna Seca: 1:42.96

The track length of Laguna Seca is 2.238 mi. The average speed for a 1:40s time is 80.5mph. That is higher than the 48mph threshold mentioned above.
The average speed for the BMW M3 2011 was 98mph on the Nurburgring and 7:48s. Model 3 would be slower even if it could complete it on max performance but runs into thermal limitiations before reaching the end.


So the Tesla can be competitive only on tracks where the average speed is low, lots of curves and the race is shorter than 6 minutes.

So in summary M3 wins on most tracks and at speeds way over the speed limit on the street while Model 3 is faster in almost all real world situatons which represent 99% of street driving.
/Thread

 

[pdxev]

These are 2 very different cars. Model 3 is fast in the city, BMW M3 is fast on the highway and on the track.

Based on my calculations the BMW is faster above 48mph. The 40mph-50mph time is still better for the Model 3 P but the difference is small and the M3 beats it with a larger difference on 50mph-60mph.

60-100 mph times for
Model 3P: 5.3s
BMW M3: 4.6s

The Model 3P can run for about 6-7 miles or 5-6 minutes on the track, after then it loses 25% of its performance.

Amateur driver Model 3 Performance on Laguna Seca: 1:46.8
prof driver BMW M4 on Laguna Seca: 1:39.69
prof driver BMW M3 (2010) on Laguna Seca: 1:42.96

The track length of Laguna Seca is 2.238 mi. The average speed for a 1:40s time is 80.5mph. That is higher than the 48mph threshold mentioned above.
The average speed for the BMW M3 2011 was 98mph on the Nurburgring and 7:48s. Model 3 would be slower even if it could complete it on max performance but runs into thermal limitiations before reaching the end.


So the Tesla can be competitive only on tracks where the average speed is low, lots of curves and the race is shorter than 6 minutes.

Where are you getting the 25% drop in performance figure?

 

[Hota]

Ok, please name some. I'm honestly curious to learn.

Brakes - M3 has the best brakes I've ever felt. Zero squish, super responsive and a hard bite without being overly sensitive. 60-0 in under 100 ft. The feel of the Model 3 brakes SUCK. Model S brakes have significantly better feel than the Model 3.

Grip - M3 has 1g of lateral acceleration. Model 3 has 0.85g. That is a huge difference you can definitely feel in everyday driving.

 

[commasign]

If we were talking about Audi vs BMW vs Mercedes, yes. But the problem is gas cars are bad for the environment and bad for health. I dare anyone to challenge the latter cause I'm ready to unload on that.

@voip-ninja you disagree that gas cars are bad for the environment and bad for health??? Wow, that really says a lot about where you’re coming from in this discussion. Not sure why you even bought a Tesla then.