Tesla Model 3 vs Chevy Bolt

[techmaven]

GM has 124 deaths due to ignition switch issues; Tesla has 1 bad suspension for a guy who drove down a long dirt road every day. I'm sure GM has a lot to teach Tesla. I advise Tesla to plug their ears.

Thank you kindly.

No, it's worse. GM did the data collection and knew that their vehicles had ignition switch issues that cause horrific safety problems. But they decided it was too expensive to do anything about it.

 

[Jeff N]

GM is about to be hit with fines for "overstating" their Acadia's MPG figures (this little lapse may extend to other GMC vehicles, and go back years). I guess they forgot to test them properly.
Robin

I believe the issue was the window stickers only. The tests were correct and were correctly reported to the EPA for inclusion on fueleconomy.gov. It was an isolated printing issue.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I believe the issue was the window stickers only. The tests were correct and were correctly reported to the EPA for inclusion on fueleconomy.gov. It was an isolated printing issue.

According to GM, it was not a simple sticker misprint but rather incorrect data.

"GM now blames the issue on new "emissions-related hardware" installed on the Enclave, Traverse, and Acadia (all three are closely related) for the 2016 model year.

This required new fuel-economy tests for these models, and that data wasn't considered when calculating figures for the original window stickers."
GM big SUV buyers to get gift cards or protection plan for fuel-economy errors (updated)

 

[Jeff N]

According to GM, it was not a simple sticker misprint but rather incorrect data.

Okay. Faulty memory, I guess.

 

[Skotty]

Let us just say Volt form factor is a poorly thought out solution to a genuine problem - probably because Lutz was more interested in building a faux-muscle car than a real PHEV with utility.

While I have no complaints about the rest of your post, this particular line I completely disagree with. If you want to see a poorly thought out solution, look at the Ford Fusion Energi. The Volt is actually well thought out. It is also a real PHEV with utility. I gave up my muscle car (a 2011 Mustang GT) to drive a Volt because it was a PHEV with utility. I was happy to move away from the Volt and into an S recently in part because it in no way resembled a muscle car, and I missed the sportiness and performance. Just because they didn't make the Volt butt ugly like most green vehicles doesn't mean it's a faux muscle car. So I would argue the exact opposite of everything that was said in that line, other than there being a genuine problem to be solved.

 

[stopcrazypp]

While I have no complaints about the rest of your post, this particular line is complete baloney. If you want to see a poorly thought out solution, look at the Ford Fusion Energi. The Volt is actually well thought out. It is also a real PHEV with utility. I gave up my muscle car (a 2011 Mustang GT) to drive a Volt because it was a PHEV with utility. I was happy to move away from the Volt and into an S recently in part because it in no way resembled a muscle car, and I missed the sportiness and performance. Just because they didn't make the Volt butt ugly like most green vehicles doesn't mean it's a faux muscle car. So I would argue the exact opposite of everything that was said in that line, other than there being a genuine problem to be solved.

He is probably taking about the 5th seat thing and the general interior room of the Volt. It is more coupe-like than sedan-like.

The Fusion Energi has its own problems (mainly that they just plopped in the battery in the trunk which kills cargo space), but in terms of the passenger space it's pretty much the same as the ICE version.

 

[Skotty]

He is probably taking about the 5th seat thing and the general interior room of the Volt. It is more coupe-like than sedan-like.

The Fusion Energi has its own problems (mainly that they just plopped in the battery in the trunk which kills cargo space), but in terms of the passenger space it's pretty much the same as the ICE version.

Could be. I have 2 kids and the Volt back seats worked fine for them. The early ones had no 5th seat, but the new ones technically do (not that I would want to put 3 across). So that's a valid concern for some. Leg space was a little limited but it was workable. The buckles were actually better in the Volt than in the S, as the S buckles are recessed and too far outboard making buckling difficult for booster seats.

 

[McRat]

No, it's worse. GM did the data collection and knew that their vehicles had ignition switch issues that cause horrific safety problems. But they decided it was too expensive to do anything about it.

You need to stop listening to mega-million class action marketing efforts by legal firms.

If you swam every day, then drove your car every day, you'd be 400 times more likely to drown than have an ignition key failure that was fatal.

These were REALLY rare occurrences polluted by the tyranny of statistics. A 1:100,000 chance is no longer an acceptable threat level. The odds a faulty pin/tumbler key would kill you in a GM is 124 / 13,000,000. This allows for a 13 year period. So about 1 per million per year.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

You need to stop listening to mega-million class action marketing efforts by legal firms.

If you swam every day, then drove your car every day, you'd be 400 times more likely to drown than have an ignition key failure that was fatal.

These were REALLY rare occurrences polluted by the tyranny of statistics. A 1:100,000 chance is no longer an acceptable threat level. The odds a faulty pin/tumbler key would kill you in a GM is 124 / 13,000,000. This allows for a 13 year period. So about 1 per million per year.

Small consolation to the families of the deceased.

So, what are the odds that a faulty pin/tumbler would cause an accident? Because I don't see the reason to restrict it to fatalities.

 

[JeffK]

The number of official claims as of 2014 made mention in the lawsuit was around 4400.

It wasn't a pin/tumbler issue, it was a detent plunger issue. Meaning it was overly easy to turn the key on and off.

This caused the engine to completely shut off as you were driving, you'd lose power steering, and the airbags would not deploy. This is a deadly combination.

It can happen easily if your knee hit it, if you had a heavy swinging keychain, it you hit a bad bump, etc. It's completely unacceptable for a company to know about a potentially deadly flaw and do nothing to mitigate it or alert the public of the possibility for nearly TEN YEARS.

 

[SageBrush]

I believe the issue was the window stickers only. The tests were correct and were correctly reported to the EPA for inclusion on fueleconomy.gov. It was an isolated printing issue.

An isolated printing issue that spans models and years ?

 

[SageBrush]

The odds a faulty pin/tumbler key would kill you in a GM is 124 / 13,000,000. This allows for a 13 year period. So about 1 per million per year.

Your stats are waaaay off.
The numerator is at least 4400
The denominator is the models and years affected

And, GM ignored the repair to save pennies per car. It makes me sick to remember that miserable company was bailed out with taxpayer money.

 

[Topher]

These were REALLY rare occurrences polluted by the tyranny of statistics.

The statistics have nothing to do with my anger. It is the avoid-ability and fore-knowledge. If you decide, knowing the odds, to (avoidably) kill one out of every million of your customers every year. I will decide not to be one of your customers.

Thank you kindly.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The main limitation to making a plugin hybrid be an EREV is battery capacity. An EREV needs a sufficient battery that can power the car up to highway speeds and provide adequate acceleration on battery alone. With today's battery technology that usually aligns with having a 10+ kWh pack. I expect EREV cars to become more common in another 5 years as batteries get smaller and cheaper and conventional car companies get smarter about packaging the powertrains.

Seems to me that the main stumbling block to EREV is actually the inability to heat the car adequately at low temperatures. It looks like the Prime will be able to do its stuff in EV mode with an 8.8kWh battery, but it seems that they're going to hit a temperature wall with their heat pump.

 

[Jeff N]

Seems to me that the main stumbling block to EREV is actually the inability to heat the car adequately at low temperatures. It looks like the Prime will be able to do its stuff in EV mode with an 8.8kWh battery, but it seems that they're going to hit a temperature wall with their heat pump.

I realize your own individual definition of "EREV", as you have stated previously, prohibits use of the gas engine for cabin heating in cold winter conditions and thus you think the Volt is not an "EREV" since it starts the engine at temperatures under 15F.

I was assuming GM's definition which only requires the engine not be started due to vehicle speed or torque requirements. Thus, cabin heating is largely irrelevant to EREV battery sizing.

The Prime starts the engine at vehicle speeds over 85 mph and thus is not an EREV under GM's definition.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I realize your own individual definition of "EREV", as you have stated previously, prohibits use of the gas engine for cabin heating in cold winter conditions and thus you think the Volt is not an "EREV" since it starts the engine at temperatures under 15F.

I was assuming GM's definition which only requires the engine not be started due to vehicle speed or torque requirements. Thus, cabin heating is irrelevant to EREV battery sizing.

The Prime starts the engine at vehicle speeds over 85 mph and thus is not an EREV under GM's definition.

Actually GM's definition is broader than that. A Prius Prime is an EREV under GM's definition given the new EV mode locks it in electric operation (will not start engine due to speed/acceleration, even though top speed is lower) and also meets the requirements of "full performance" ZEV as definited in this CARB paper:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevreview/zev_panel_report.pdf

The definition of "full performance" ZEV by CARB is quite vague (only that it meets the performance of a conventional ICE vehicle), but the i-MIEV (0-60 13-14 seconds, top speed 81mph) is classified as one.

 

[EVNow]

While I have no complaints about the rest of your post, this particular line I completely disagree with. ... So I would argue the exact opposite of everything that was said in that line, other than there being a genuine problem to be solved.

Just look at the Volt concept car they showed - and all those salivating muscle car fans on Lyle's site and how they were disappointed when the real production car came out - you'd see my point.

 

[Jeff N]

A Prius Prime is an EREV under GM's definition given the new EV mode locks it in electric operation (will not start engine due to speed/acceleration, even though top speed is lower)....

That's not how the Prime works in EV mode, as far as I can tell. Do you have a source for that information?

The owner's manual is not yet available and nobody outside of Toyota has had a chance to test drive it to my knowledge. However, I tracked this information down while writing the following article:

Toyota's Prius Prime Shows One Way for a Better Plug-in Hybrid - HybridCars.com

With its new battery and dual motors the Prius Prime now has stronger EV driving capability. As long as there is usable battery charge the gas engine will stay off even under full acceleration. However, the engine will start if the driver goes above 84 mph. The previous generation Prius Plug-in would start the engine under moderate acceleration or at speeds above 62.

This information comes directly from a Toyota corporate PR spokesperson:

QUESTION:
Under what conditions does the engine start up under the car's default EV mode?

ANSWER: The car starts in EV mode in almost all conditions. Even in very cold temperatures, if the Prius Prime has been plugged in, the battery warmer will allow it to start in EV mode. While driving, the Prius Prime will stay in EV mode through 84 mph.

QUESTION:
When there is usable battery charge will the engine start up due to hard acceleration?

ANSWER: No. It will remain in EV mode up to 84 mph.

QUESTION:
What about speed? I assume it stays all-electric under 84 mph. What about over 84? Is it electronically speed limited to 84 mph in EV mode or will it start the engine in EV mode if you accelerate with the "gas pedal" to go faster than 84?

ANSWER: The engine will kick on above 84 mph.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That's not how the Prime works in EV mode, as far as I can tell. Do you have a source for that information?

The owner's manual is not yet available and nobody outside of Toyota has had a chance to test drive it to my knowledge. However, I tracked this information down while writing the following article:

Toyota's Prius Prime Shows One Way for a Better Plug-in Hybrid - HybridCars.com



This information comes directly from a Toyota corporate PR spokesperson:

I'm just going with the initial PR where it says the EV mode will lock it in EV operation:
"It even has one driving detail that will please plug-in enthusiasts right off the bat: The Prius Prime will, in its EV Mode, entirely lock in electric operation—even when you floor the accelerator."
2016 Toyota Prius Prime: details on 120 MPGe plug-in hybrid, all-electric mode

Of course we will see when the user manual comes out (I tried to search, but couldn't find it either).

All this is a small software feature anyways since essentially this is just a software speed limiter similar to valet mode, (seems kind of silly to let that be a designation of a car category, which is why I guess the SAE never accepted GM's EREV definition/terminology).

I remember in the non-US regions, even the older PiP had a EV button to lock out the engine (although US market PiP only had a EV/HV button which allows you to switch between modes, but doesn't lock out the engine).

 

[SageBrush]

In other news to elicit a yawn, GM chooses an 'EREV' definition that only includes the Volt.

Who wudda thunk ?!

Now if only anyone cared, I could at least understand the five posts dedicated to the question.